NYS Seeks HSR $ From WI & OHIO

From today's front page of the Utica Observer-Dispatch:

"Local officials are joining the call for New York state to receive 1.26 billion in federal funds for high-speed rail that the governors-elect in Ohio and Wisconsin recently said they would be declining by cancelling projects in those states."

http://www.uticaod.com/features/x110935 ... speed-rail

I'd rather see a $1.26 billion tax cut

I second the motion to reduce taxes by 1.2 BILLION dollars INSTEAD of a HSR system that 80% of the populace DOES NOT WANT !!

I posted on this when it came up a week or so ago, but my post disappeared. I did indeed notice that.

This whole HSR thing is a HUGE BOONDOGGLE, they are pi--ing away your grandchildren’s money long before they even get a chance to EARN it.

Part of being a forward looking populace with an elected government is to be responsible about FUTURE DEBTS. Having a Gee Whiz HSR system that our grandkids have to work 40 hours every week of the year to pay for IS IRRESPONSIBLE!!!

Cheers, Kevin.

NYCRRson wrote:Having a Gee Whiz HSR system that our grandkids have to work 40 hours every week of the year to pay for IS IRRESPONSIBLE!

Kevin, we're talking about raising speeds to 79-110 mph system wide for conventional Amtrak trains, I'm not sure I know what system you are referring to?

I think Otto meant from 79 to 110. The current Amtrak GE Diesel Fleet is capable of these speeds already. It's in track and signaling that upgrades must be made.

you cannot just say "oh boo hoo i dont want my taxes rasied" and expect anything to get done around here. You have to spend money to make money. Improving this country's infastructure would be such a helpful and money saving improvement in the long run and these stupid tax payers always cry about paying more money and wonder why NOTHING IS EVER GOING TO GET DONE. Give me a break. As a NYS resident, i'm all for it.

I do hate to be party pooper but;

“you cannot just say "oh boo hoo i dont want my taxes rasied" and expect anything to get done around here. You have to spend money to make money. Improving this country's infastructure (infrastructure, sic) would be such a helpful and money saving improvement in the long run and these stupid tax payers always cry about paying more money and wonder why NOTHING IS EVER GOING TO GET DONE. Give me a break. As a NYS resident, i'm all for it.”

Just so you know as a soon to be former NYS resident you can raise my taxes all you want. HOWEVER YOU CANNOT FORCE ME TO WORK AND GIVE YOU THE MONEY TO WASTE ON STUFF THAT 75% OF THE PEOPLE DO NOT WANT (Reference: Lousie Slaughter’s online poll circa early 2009, quickly removed from her website after a month).

“you have to spend money to make money”, I think what you really meant was “you have to waste other people’s money to accomplish things that MOST people don’t want”.

Spending BILLIONS of dollars that we DO NOT HAVE to raise Amtrak’s speed from 79 to 115 is a BOONDOGGLE!!!!!! Just like it was a BOONDOGGLE the last time they did it in the late 1970's. The number of people using Amtrak in upstate NY hasn't changed much in 4 DECADES (~6 daily trains from the 1970's to today). There are more people in the deli at one Wegman's store on any given day than the number of people riding Amtrak to/from Rochester in a whole week!!!

Cheers, Kevin.

HSR is most assuredly NOT a boondoggle. Let's think about Amtrak service in NY for a minute- the ridership is low because the trains aren't very fast. Improving the speed of service between Buffalo and NYC should make Amtrak a much more attractive option to travellers.

Regarding Louise Slaughter's poll- it was not scientific. It is possible for a single person to vote multiple times in a typical online poll simply by logging out, deleting the cookies on his/her computer and then logging in to vote again. Thus there is no way to prevent a person or (worse yet) a group of determined people from altering the results of an online poll to suit their desire. I don't take any online polls seriously for that reason.

Finally, Cuomo is asking for federal money to develop HSR in NYS. He isn't raising my taxes to get the job done.

Matt wrote:

"HSR is most assuredly NOT a boondoggle. Let's think about Amtrak service in NY for a minute- the ridership is low because the trains aren't very fast. Improving the speed of service between Buffalo and NYC should make Amtrak a much more attractive option to travellers."

I respectfully disagree; increasing the speed from 79 to 115 would take maybe two hours off a 7-8 hour ride. So I can spend a half hour driving to the station and waiting for the train then ride for 5-6 hours to NYC. Or I could drive to the airport, take a plane and be there in 3 hours (unless I get patted down for an hour at the airport).

Please don't take my opinions the wrong way, I LOVE trains, I wish the 20th Century Limited still ran, I had a Cab ride with my Dad in the ESE (albeit after it lost its name and only had a number). BUT: THE JET AIRPLANE HAS CHANGED TRAVEL FOR DISTANCES OF MORE THAN A FEW HUNDRED MILES FOREVER. Wasting money on speeding up trains that much less than 5% of the travelling public use is about a useful as researching a better buggy whip. The travelling public has spoken; we would be wise to listen.

I also remember the last time they did this (mid 1970’s) when they purchased the Turbo’s and spent a bunch of money and made big promises about if the trains were faster more people would ride them. Funny thing is it did not work the last time. So I am still inclined to believe that it will not work this time and is STILL A BOONDOGGLE!

Sure higher speeds from NYC to Albany might help, and improving the the NEC makes a lot of sense, but the population base in WNY is too dispersed for it to be a wise investment at this time.

Somebody posited that "you have to spend money to make money" we have been spending and losing money on Amtrak for 4 decades (that may be longer than some of you have been alive), when pray tell does it start to "make money"?

Regarding how it’s USA money so you aren’t paying for it, I feel sorry for someone this naive. Do you work at all, do you pay into Social Security (most of that money goes into the general US Treasury eventually), pay a phone bill? (there is a Federal excise tax on that), have a few dollars saved up (those are now worth less because of flagrant Federal spending), buy anything made overseas ? (the cost of those Hondas are sure to go up as the dollar drops), ever hope to move up and make enough money that you do have to pay US income tax?, hope to make a killing in the stock market (want to give a share of your gains to the Feds ?). And of course the Feds are now discussing how there may need to be a Federal Sales or VAT tax to pay for all this candy they are handing out. I say CANDY because some people are so easily distracted by a short term “sugar high” from the FREE STUFF that they can’t think about the REAL costs of the FREE STUFF.

Cheers, Kevin.

Kevin

Maybe you would be happier in WI or OH
JRS

NYCRRson wrote:Regarding how it’s USA money so you aren’t paying for it, I feel sorry for someone this naive.

Respectfully Kevin, I’m not being naïve. You had no way of knowing this, but I did moderate (and co-admin) a political message board for 4 years. Thus I do have a pretty good idea of how the funding works. Yes, it is collected from taxes. The important thing to remember is this: Congress has already passed the bill and the funding has been allocated to the Transportation Dept for HSR. It does not magically go back into general funding if it is unspent! Nor can the Transportation Dept just take the funds for use elsewhere. (I believe that would be called graft and subject to prosecution.) With that in mind, there are unspent HSR funds and my boy Cuomo is doing the correct thing by asking for them, IMO.

Your talking points also fall short in a couple other ways, as well. Let’s start with the demand for ridership. Your frame of reference seems to be the 1970s. Sorry, it’s not 1976 any more! I moved to Hammondsport (NY) that year. It was a great environment to learn about the wine and tourist industries. Back in those days, there were a relatively small number of wineries in New York State. Thanks to some initiatives passed by NYS back in the early ‘80s, the upstate NY wine industry is booming and tourism is growing right along with it. HSR will be a valuable tool in bringing tourists from NYC to the Finger Lakes.

How so? Yes, a flight from JFK to Rochester is about an hour itself but I have flown the corridor so I can tell you that there is a 1-2 hour lead time for arriving at the airport. By contrast, I can show up at the Amtrak station just minutes before the train arrives. There is less hassle with taking the train, too. (Read: pat downs.) If HSR can sufficiently reduce the time for transit between NYC and upstate NY, it would be a very attractive option for tourists. I think a 4 hour train trip would compete quite well against airlines, especially if the price for an Amtrak ticket is lower than that of an airline. A station in Lyons would also help a lot, as it is closer to the Finger Lakes than either Rochester or Syracuse. A similar business model could be used for trips to Niagara Falls and other places.

You can call it a boondoggle but I see HSR as a worthy investment. Amtrak, too, is a worthy investment. It’s struggled throughout its 40 year lifespan because most Presidents (Nixon, Ford, Carter, Reagan and both Bushes) and Congress cared very little about it. Expecting Amtrak to be competitive with its miniscule budget is like asking a kid who works at the drive through window at McDonalds to buy a Ferrari. Those who argue for increasing investment in Amtrak are correct. It does indeed take seed money to grow more money later.

As for your talking points about VAT and other extraneous subjects, they are not relevant to this conversation and I won’t respond to them. You’d probably find that sort of conversation more enjoyable on a political message board, IMO.


P.S. The Turbo Trains were a bust because they were high maintenance gas guzzlers. What information do you have. Kevin, that HSR would be hgih maintenance or using too much fuel?

***edited for spelling***

My observation is the only way HSR will work is to have separate trackage between Albany and Buffalo in a straight line with very few changes in grade, few at grade crossings and dedicated trackage. HSR will never happen on shared track with CSX or NS as they want no part of passenger service. I will not hold my breath for to long until we get TRUE HSR not medium HSR with the trackage we have, just remember senators and congressmen talk out of both sides.

Steve W wrote:My observation is the only way HSR will work is to have separate trackage between Albany and Buffalo in a straight line with very few changes in grade, few at grade crossings and dedicated trackage. HSR will never happen on shared track with CSX or NS as they want no part of passenger service. I will not hold my breath for to long until we get TRUE HSR not medium HSR with the trackage we have, just remember senators and congressmen talk out of both sides.

I think HSR would work better if it had its own ROW. I'm wondering if the state could acquire abandonned portions of the West Shore (Albany-Macedon) and the Lehigh Valley (roughly Stafford to Buffalo) by eminent domain.

Forget not that the airline industry is heavily subsidized by your government. Heavily, as in if it were not subsidized to the level it is today and has been for years, you and I would probably not be able to afford the short 3 hour flight to NYC. By the way it's more like 1 hour from Rochester by air and the price is comparable to Amtrak's current ticket price if and only if you book your flight several weeks in advance.

Howdy, it’s clear you won’t change my opinion of HSR in NYS. Neither will I change yours. So after a few more thoughts from me I will stop beating this horse that has assumed room temperature.

I am not “stuck” in a 1970’s mindset, my historical references are meant to convey that all of these promises have been made and not fulfilled before, I know because I saw it in person.

The HSR rail program of the 1970’s failed to attract any significant percentage of the travelling public away from the airlines, one of its main promises. Why (Turbo’s being fuel hogs, etc.) does not matter, what matters is that it FAILED to do what it promised to do.

Amtrak was originally begun as a “seed money” project that would be “self sustaining” in X years. Surprise surprise after X years there was a need for more ”seed money” to make it “self sustaining” in X more years. After 4 decades of not becoming “self sustaining” I CALL BONDOGGLE.

Yes indeed the Government subsidizes some modes of travel more than others. This is totally appropriate under the “common welfare” clause of the US Constitution. The operative word here is “common” which means the US Government can and should spend tax revenues (instead of the cowardly method of borrowing) to provide services and infrastructure that “promote” (an important caveat found in the welfare clause, please note the word is PROMOTE, not PROVIDE) the “common welfare”. Although no exact definition of “common welfare” exists in the US Constitution I postulate that something that only promotes the welfare of a few percent of the populace is not “common welfare”. The Post Office, which serves 99.5% of the people is “common welfare”, controlling the airspace which 99% of the people use at sometime is “common welfare”, patrolling the coasts and assisting mariners (i.e. the US Coast Guard) is “common welfare”.

Yes indeed the money has been budgeted by legislation. Several more trips to the Moon were also budgeted by legislation. I have seen government programs larger than this that were fully budgeted disappear after one vote in US House of Representatives, or one signature by a President. So don’t count your Billions and your 4 hour trip to NYC by train before the train leaves the station.

Thanks for your thoughts (I’m sorry but none where very new, I’ve heard them all before). I’ll leave this room temperature horse alone from now on.

Cheers, Kevin.