NYS Seeks HSR $ From WI & OHIO

I love watching everyone get worked up into a frenzy over this stuff. Ignore the labels. This is merely planned infrastructure improvements to add capacity and improve reliability on our existing rails. Call it high-speed rail. Call it low-speed rail. Essentially, we're helping build up and support our existing routes...

But the stuff you guys are talking about is fun, too. But nothing to do with the topic at hand. There's no flying cars, and no bullet trains.

-otto-

I guess none of us could dispute these FACTS:

1. Raildoads maintained their own physical plant and traffic control infrastructure. And were taxed heavily on it.

2. Trucking, buses and automobiles operate over 100% SUBSIDIZED infrastructure and traffic control.

3. Airlines operate out of SUBSIDIZED airports the FAA is SUBSIDIZED by taxpeyers.

JRS

Kevin, my comment about the Turbotrains being inefficient gas guzzlers is very much relevant. It should be noted that while the Turbotrains were discontinued circa 1976, Amtrak kept the Buffalo to NYC corridor open. Obviously, they must have felt it was a viable route. Flashing forward to now, Cuomo wants to improve rail service in NYS with modern technology. After decades of neglect, it’s time to upgrade the infrastructure of NY (and the country as a whole). Faster trains, if properly marketed, should attract more riders, which will make Amtrak more self-sufficient and grow the tourism industry in NY even further. BTW, growing the tax base and creating jobs will help the general welfare of the people. I don’t see a downside to HSR, especially with funds already being allocated. And let’s not forget the pendulum swings both ways- we can elect politicians who will fund rail-friendly legislation. And that’s what we’re getting with Cuomo.

you guys are doing a fine job. But, I believe he has closed his mind to any other concepts. We'll just let the infastructure rot away till we're a 3rd world country. China and the EU have already surpased the US with superb transportation systems and are attracting new and expanding industrial, finanace customers. Who needs any of that stuff. Airline rates are rising, carry on bag charges, longer security lines and waits. Not to mention the hour plus cab ride to your destination from the larger city airports to a downtown locations, vs Penn station's downtown location. Nah, who needs it.

Just did a little price comparison comparing the cost of a trip to NYC from Rochester from 12/3 to 12/6 using Amtrak and USAIR websites.

The last three times I went there I stayed right across from NYP, so that is my destination.

Travel Time
Amtrak: 7 hours, walk across street, 5 minutes.
USAIR: Get to the airport 2 hours early, as recommended by airport, 1:31 travel time per USAIR. (remember, no jets) figure about 30 minutes from the time the plane hits the ground till you are on a moving bus. (been there, done it). Add about 30 minutes travel time for a total of 4.5 hours, about a 2.5 hour savings.

Since someone will bring it up, I have had way more airline delays than rail.

Cost
Amtrak $138
Air USAIR 258, bus about 15, parking about 30. so we are looking at about 300, or twice as much.

So, on my last train trip I was able to read, listen to music and walk around and talk to people. On my last plane trip I almost missed my connecting flight to the UK.

On top of that, most of you railfans are cheapskates, how many would give up 150 to save 3 hours?

Howdy, I just checked the temperature of this equine and it seems it has not yet reached room temperature, so what the heck I’ll flog it one more time since you all seem to want to as well.

Regarding facts;

1) I never denied that other modes of transport (trucks, airports, canals, pipelines, buses, etc. etc. etc.) have in the past and in some cases still continue to receive subsidies. Is this “fair”? Maybe yes maybe no. Would the shift from passenger trains to jet aircraft for longer distance travel have occurred at a later date without these subsidies, maybe by a few years or at most a decade. Once people found out they could get from New York to LA in 6 hours versus 3 days the airlines could have risked a bunch of their own money and built their own airports and still displaced the railroads for long distance travel. It may have taken until the 1980’s but IT WOULD HAVE HAPPENED.

2) I do not dispute that for some folks posting here a train ride to NYC from WNY is a viable option. From an elapsed time, comfort and cost perspective this works for some people. My only observation is that the percentage of people that find this option viable is less than 5%, probably less than 2%. When I was a more rabid fan of passenger trains I used to suggest to my relatives that travelled from NYC to WNY that they “try the train”, they looked at me like I had three heads, that was a change since they usually looked at me like I had two heads. You have to face up to this fact; most adults below the age of 60-70 here in WNY have never ridden a passenger train.

3) The Turbo Trains began operations from BCT to NYC in the Fall of 1976, I know because I rode the Empire Service before and after they came into service. I think they went OOS in the late 1980’s, or perhaps the early 1990’s.

Regarding my opinions;

I am not opposed to some REASONABLE level of subsidies for transportation modes as long as the subsidies are commensurate with the percentage of the market that selects that mode.

I do not believe that the government can FORCE market decisions by picking winning modes/technologies. If this was possible the government could have kept the Pony Express viable by outlawing the Telegraph. I bet you there would have been black market telegraph lines buried where the Government could not find them.

I am opposed to outrageous deficit spending by the government to try and force the market winner to be what they think it should be. As somebody suggested we will be a “third world country” if we don’t spend this money right now to keep up with the Chinese. REALLY, are you serious?, have you ever travelled to the third world? I have and believe me the last thing those folks are worried about is how to travel 400 miles in 4 hours, they are trying to figure out how they are going to find something to eat tonight.

And finally, I find it ABHORRENT that some people think this is all “FREE” money and justify their lust by pointing out that “SOMEBODY ELSE GOT SOME FREE MONEY, WHERE’S MINE”? Some of these comments are just juvenile; “that’s my man, he’s going to get me some free stuff”, “I don’t care because it’s not my tax dollars”. Perhaps you might think about what ridiculous unaffordable promise a politician has made that you could live without for a while? Maybe you could spend a few more hours travelling to NYC by train for a while when we have troops in the field, some of whom are giving the ultimate sacrifice. And I don’t want to hear about how we should not be there, the Commander in Chief (present and previous) WITH THE APPROVAL OF THE LEGISLATIVE BRANCH OF THE GOVERNMENT decided that’s a task at hand and you can at least spend a few more hours on the frigging train for the next few years.

OK, CONSIDER THIS EQUINE FLOGGED BEYOND BELIEF……

Cheers, Kevin.

OK..

one last thing,, you know who gets their news from NPR, and who gets theirs from Fox......(that was meant to be a joke, not a poke)

all kidding aside,,, democracy is not for the weak,,,debate is good, and healthy.....Happy Thanksgiving to all.

Rehashing the same stagnation issues. Just because you or your family and friends won't take Amtrak, does mean nobody does. Media is reporting record ridership on Amtrak over the past year and this travel season is expecting to set new records. Amtrak reported 28.7 million riders in 2009, a 6% increase over 2008. Last Thanksgiving saw 690,000 during that travel period alone and this year is expected to be as high. Besides the short term risership surges following the 9/11 attacks. Ridership has been steadilly increasing since with larger jumps during '07 and '08 as fuel and airline prices continued to rise. Amtrak citing recent fuel price increases and lifestyle changes including the increased usage of electronic devices, which have no use restrictions on trains. I agree with you that this is certainly NOT, "free money". It is all Federal monies which primary source is our taxes. To top that off, once completed, the State receiving said these grants must fund the up keep and maintainance of these facilities once completed. Initailly this is an additional burden on an already dangerously overbudget State. The ridership reason you stated is not supported by the statistics. Anyone who sends time in or near Amtrak stations around the state when trains are do can support the reports. I'm not expecting to alter your oppinion, just instilling some actual facts to your reported issue.

Let me know when you guys catch your tails!

-otto-

NYCRRson wrote:And finally, I find it ABHORRENT that some people think this is all “FREE” money and justify their lust by pointing out that “SOMEBODY ELSE GOT SOME FREE MONEY, WHERE’S MINE”? Some of these comments are just juvenile; “that’s my man, he’s going to get me some free stuff”, “I don’t care because it’s not my tax dollars”. Perhaps you might think about what ridiculous unaffordable promise a politician has made that you could live without for a while? Maybe you could spend a few more hours travelling to NYC by train for a while when we have troops in the field, some of whom are giving the ultimate sacrifice. And I don’t want to hear about how we should not be there, the Commander in Chief (present and previous) WITH THE APPROVAL OF THE LEGISLATIVE BRANCH OF THE GOVERNMENT decided that’s a task at hand and you can at least spend a few more hours on the frigging train for the next few years.

OK, CONSIDER THIS EQUINE FLOGGED BEYOND BELIEF……

Yet you keep coming back. And quite frankly, your quips about juvenile comments and the wars in Middle East are completely irrelevant to the discussion of whether NY's governor should or should not be seeking HSR funds. I never said HSR was free, either. Of course it will cost money... but that money has already been allocated so I agree with Cuomo's decision to pursue it. Since you seem prone to including talking points that aren't related the subject of HSR in NY, I am done with this thread.

I agree with Matt. This subject has been rehashed so many times, and the same arguements are repeated. We all have our oppinions. Let's go beat up some other subject.

What are the requirements for the amount of land needed to construct a row for a HSR operation? From scratch. For example, if we decided to move HSR ops soley to Niagara Falls, we could operate from Rochester via the WSRR to the former Peanut Line and then to the Niagara Falls branch into Niagara Falls for a customes stop.

But as you get closer to Clarence, you will hit non stop neighborhoods all the way to Niagara Falls. The Peanut in Clarence/Clarence Center is now a sports area and they will likely be the first fight against HSR. Then you get into Amherst which fought tooth and nail against a bike path, HSR? Then you got the Tonawandas. Only when you get to the Niagara FAlls branch will it open up for possibilites.

If ops continue through Buffalo regardless if it stops there or not, why do we even need a dedicated track west of say Batavia or Pembroke. I don't think some of the curves near Buffalo or going through the city will allow high speed anyways. Maybe higher speeds but not high speed.

I'm not sure it will even happen. How can you operate in a way that the neighborhoods, politicians and news media will all be attacking this for there own purpose. I'm all for it but when I consider that so many people have there hands in my cookie jar taking all of my money leaving me without much left over, I probably won't even be able to afford to ride the damn thing!

To Matt and others,

Sorry if I have offended you, but I find it frustrating when politicians manipulate folks.

So here’s how I see the whole HSR thing (take it for what it’s worth);

Mario Jr. Desperately wants to be the PREZ of the USA. He’s tasted the perks of a cabinet position and is just itching to MOVE UP.

Mario Jr’s Dad also wanted to be PREZ but he was so arrogant that he demanded that we BEG him to run for the job. There were very few people begging as I recall.

Mario Jr. has learned from Dad’s mistakes and is not going to repeat them. He sees that he has a few years at best to show that he can run a state properly. He has strong competition over there in NJ (which has balanced their budget with just some common sense changes, albeit with a bunch of squealing involved).

So Mario Jr. is going to SAY whatever he thinks people are going to like. But he is going to plug as many holes in the leaking ship (New York) as he can to look good. Then he’s going to get off the ship as soon as possible to move UP.

I predict that as soon as he discovers that HSR funds from the US will also cost the state a bunch of money the whole thing will quickly fade away. Don’t be surprised if New York State never even applies for all that “free money” for HSR that the fed’s are sitting on. Also don’t be surprised if all that “free money” DISAPPEARS next January.

To all those that think they elected “rail friendly” politicians, sorry, but the powers that be in Albany SELECTED the governor, your vote was just a formality.

To the person with the stats about Amtrak Ridership, yes indeed there was a record level of folks riding the train in 2008 (at least as Amtrak history goes). But at the same time there was record ridership on the airplanes. So there was no shift in the percentage of people that chose the train (less than 5%) versus the plane (more than 95%).

Also, I have never said that train travel is not a viable option for some folks that want to travel. It is a viable option, but a very small percentage of people chose it.

Please everybody have a good thanksgiving holiday. I fondly remember taking the train home from college for this holiday.

Cheers, Kevin.

Train ridership is up just as much because people don't want to pay for the privledge of being molested just to fly on a plane, as anything. That plus as noted above it can be cheaper than flying, and in this economy people are looking to save when possible. FWIW, from Syracuse it's often enough cheaper to fly out of Rochester to be well worth the added expense and time to drive there.

I agree Cuomo is another guy who will say whatever he feels it takes to get your vote, but that describes something like 90% of all politicians. That said, rail infrastructure is a relatively cheap thing he can dump money on, get some things done, and claim to have accomplished something, too. So who knows what will happen.

Well kiddies, looks like the debate is over. News reports today state that President Obama has recinded HSR monies planned for Ohio and Wisconsin. The monies are being redirected to Florida and California, the 2 States which already are earmarked for the lions share of the funds to begin with. New York continues to stagnate and crumble.