Eastern Trains to Gaspe/Halifax for Christmas ?

I was wondering if anybody has heard anything if they will be running seperate sections of each train over the holidays?
In the previous years they ran them 20mins. apart.
I'm just curious if they will be running the Park cars on the Gaspe train this year/how many sleepers/diners/coaches and how long the consist will be?
Does anybody know haw many of the consist for the Halifax trains are stainless steel/Renaissance sets they are currently running and what the consist will be?
Thanks again for any info.

gaspeamtrak wrote: Does anybody know haw many of the consist for the Halifax trains are stainless steel/Renaissance sets they are currently running and what the consist will be?
Thanks again for any info.

I believe it is one consist of Budd cars, and the others are Renaissance. This means that in each direction, two trains a week will be all Budd cars. The easiest way to check when one is running is go to VIA Rail's website, go to the plan your trip tool, and select any date you're interested. You can just put in Montreal and Halifax as end points, unless you have a specific destination. When it comes up with the "Select class and fare plan" section, open the menu and look at the sleeper options. If it only mentions cabin for two and deluxe cabin for two (or whatever they're calling it at the moment), then it's a Renaissance consist. If it mentions upper and lower berths, and single bedroom options, it is a Budd consist.

The consists at that time of year for the Ocean are usually:

Budd: Baggage, 2-3 coaches, Skyline Dome, Diner, X number of sleepers (around 5 may be average), and Park (during the Christmas season this year).

Renaissance: Baggage, 2-4 coaches, Service car (for economy passengers), Diner, Service Car (for sleeper passengers), sleepers (again, I'd say around 5 or so). If they're running a Park car, which they apparently are this Christmas season, there would then be a transition coach (empty sleeper shell) to attach the Park car at the rear.

Hope that helps. I can't say much about the Chaleur, as I am only a frequent Ocean traveller.

Why does VIA run two different type of consists for the Ocean? Did they not buy enough Renaissance cars to replace all the Budds for this train? Seems to me they could use the Budds on other lines.

Great question!!!
Via did have or had the 35 Renaissance shells sitting in Thunderbay and may have scrapped them by now.
They could have tried to get the money from the Feds to finish these cars but i guess they couldn't be bothered to.
What if they have and accident with the Ocean (God forebid) they don't have any spare Renaissance cars!
That's the brilliant management we have running Via in Montreal!
But they will spend $19.5 million dollars to renovate 12 Chateau sleepers with huge private rooms which the ordinary Canadian taxpayer will never be able to afford!

electricron wrote:Why does VIA run two different type of consists for the Ocean? Did they not buy enough Renaissance cars to replace all the Budds for this train? Seems to me they could use the Budds on other lines.

gaspeamtrak wrote:Great question!!!
Via did have or had the 35 Renaissance shells sitting in Thunderbay and may have scrapped them by now.
They could have tried to get the money from the Feds to finish these cars but i guess they couldn't be bothered to.
What if they have and accident with the Ocean (God forebid) they don't have any spare Renaissance cars!

electricron wrote:Why does VIA run two different type of consists for the Ocean? Did they not buy enough Renaissance cars to replace all the Budds for this train? Seems to me they could use the Budds on other lines.

First off, VIA does normally have enough Renaissance equipment to run the Ocean with only Renaissance cars. They do for the majority of the year. It is only during the peak travel times around Christmas that they add in the Budd consist as well. From my understanding, this is due to the need to run longer consists, and not having enough Ren cars to adequately fill out 3 longer consists. So they focus the Ren equipment in two, and add the third one of Budd cars. I'm not 100% sure if this ever happens at other times of the year.

It is true that the 35 Sleeper shells in Thunderbay could have been equipped to add extra sleepers, or built into extra diners. VIA definitely could use more than just 3 Renaissance diners! The problem though, is that there would still be a limited number of coach cars and service cars available for use on the Ocean. It is commonly overlooked that the 35 extra shells were sleepers, and could not have been practically built into coaches without essentially completely rebuilding the cars (including modifying the body sides, shells, etc.). There is a real unbalanced placement of Renaissance cars, because there were initally a similar number of coaches and sleepers and such, but the corridor trains demand all baggage-coach-service car-coaches arrangements, leaving a disproportionate number of sleepers for the Ocean. It is true that there are more sleepers on each consist, but there are still lots of people who can't afford that. I'm in the spot where I can afford a berth or single bedroom on the Budd consist, but cannot justify the double or "deluxe" double options on the Ren sets, the only options available.

Instead of spending all that money on Premium Chaleurs for the Canadian, I would have suggested either taking those empty Renaissance sleeper shells, and modifying them into sleepers with single bedroom and berth accommodations, so there would be an affordable option all the time on the Ocean.

I have a few comments on this topic. Firstly, the replacement of one of the three consists of the Ocean with Budd equipment is a regular occurrence in the winter season. I am told this is done to allow refurbishment of the Renaissance equipment. Until the summer of 2008, it was normal for the Ocean to have eight sleepers plus Park car in the peak season. This summer the usual consist was only six sleepers. The usual winter consist is four. The recent Vialogue indicates that 21 Renaissance cars are getting modifications for accessibility. (The magazine does not indicate this was due to the fact that VIA lost their hotly-contested court challenge re accommodations for persons with disabilities.) This includes corridor coaches (and presumably coaches for the Ocean) and sleepers. There is a sketch of what the large sleeping car suite will look like.

This winter season the Budd-equipped Ocean will operate ex-Montreal on Thursdays and Sundays from 19 Nov. until the end of April. In previous years there have been changes in this rotation and accordingly passengers have been re-booked. It happened to me twice a few years ago. VIA is changing the way it gives off-peak discounts in sleepers. It used to be you could always get the advance-purchase discount if you booked seven, and later five, days in advance. Now it's all over the place. I found some dates where the shower rooms were discounted and the non-shower rooms were not, so it would cost about $100 more to take the normally cheaper room!

As far as the higher cost of taking single occupancy Renaissance rooms vs the tiny Budd roomettes (cabin for one in current terminology,) the cheapest Montreal-Halifax roomette is $232 plus tax and the cheapest Ren. cabin for two when sold for one is $267. Given the extra space and the toilet in its own room as opposed to being under the bed, I think this is reasonable. The cheapest Ren. room with shower is $278, again that's single occupancy.

One interesting change for the Ocean this Christmas season is the Touring Class service (formerly known as Easterly Class) will be operated for about two weeks, even on the Budd-equipped consists. Unusually, Touring Class upper or lower berths or roomettes can be purchased and there will be more than one drawing room available.

From the times on Reservia, it appears that the "no-name" Gaspe train will not be operating separately from the Ocean this Christmas season. VIA does show it departing Montreal 15 minutes before the Ocean, but they do this all the time because the two trains sometimes board on different tracks and this gives 15 minutes to combine them. The times from all other stops are identicial for both trains. This summer, the "train-formerly-known-as-the-Chaleur" did not run separate from the Ocean as it did for a few previous years. It was also much smaller than normal. The usual summer consist included a full dining car and four Chateau sleepers. This summer there was no diner and only two sleepers on most runs. The chef will return to the crew complement of the former Chaleur for the Christmas season and the menus on VIA's Website reflect that. The current menu (no cooked-on-board food - basically just snacks) is also on that site.

It was my understanding that VIA was supposed to outfit both the Chaleur and Ocean with Renaissance cars, but the project fell "short" and only the Ocean got a full treatment of three Renaissance train sets. I was also hoping VIA would have finished off the Renaissance shells in Thunder Bay to create an extra Diner (or 2), extra baggage cars, extra transition cars, and the remaining into sleepers. The Renaissance baggage cars, diners and transition cars are also of the sleeper shell. The "Service Cars" may be as well, not sure. But the "Service Cars" fall way short of providing a descent lounge space, despite some modifications VIA undertook. I'd only take the Ocean when it had Easterly Class (Touring Class) in operation with the Park Car (a true observation/lounge car plus dome!).

And the Train to Halifax and Gaspe should be run separately, on two different schedules perhaps 1.5 hours apart or something.

jp1822 wrote:I was also hoping VIA would have finished off the Renaissance shells in Thunder Bay to create an extra Diner (or 2), extra baggage cars, extra transition cars, and the remaining into sleepers. The Renaissance baggage cars, diners and transition cars are also of the sleeper shell. The "Service Cars" may be as well, not sure. But the "Service Cars" fall way short of providing a descent lounge space, despite some modifications VIA undertook.

I agree, it would have been nice for VIA to provide a few extra diners....especially since they only have 3 Ren diners, and 3 Ocean consists. What happens if one diner is badly damaged in a wreck? They can't splice in a Budd diner without two transition cars on either side, or some major changes to the Budd car. The decision not to make at LEAST one spare, doesn't seem sensible to me.

Also, jp1822, you're right that the baggage cars, diners, and transition cars are all sleeper shells. However, the service cars are not sleeper shells. They are their own unique shell design. And yes, they are in fact horrifically insufficient for lounge space. Perhaps for giving some extra space for VIA 1 passengers in the corridor they work fine, but they just don't cut it when you're on the Ocean for a full day. I was amazed by how much more room there was in the Skyline cars, even just in the downstairs lounge. But of course, the dome is simply unbeatable.

The Renaissance Service cars could easily be reconfigured to almost resemble the "lower lounge" area of the Skyline Dome cars, as the Renaissance Service cars are nearly the same size or even a little larger. Just a really poor design - for a full day on the Ocean, as mentioned. When VIA said they were re-designing these cars, I thought they would come up with something better than what they did.

It seems all VIA actually did was add that "accessibility suite", and maybe the TVs in the lounge. But that seems to be about it. If they actually redesigned the seating area to make it like it is right now, their designer needs to be fired. Sure, it's a comfy enough lounge....for maybe 5 people.

Since VIA is upgrading 25% of the Budd Chateau sleeper cars with larger suites, why aren't they also upgrading Renaissance sleepers too, at least building some of the Renaissance shells in Thunder Bay to this layout?

As for the apparent lack of Renaissance coach/chair cars to support additional sleeper trains, why not return to service the 10 ex-Amtrak LRCs Via inherited from Amtrak which are parked at VIA's headquarters in Montréal.
That could be an additional 10 car LRC train, or two 5 car LRC trains that could replace Renaissance coach/chair cars in corridor service. At least make available 10 more coach/chair Renaissance cars for the Ocean and Chaleur trains.

Via has 107 Renaissance cars in service today, as following:
3 Baggage-Transition cars (so Park cars can be added onto the Ocean train)
12 Baggage cars
14 Club cars
33 Coach cars
3 Dining cars
28 Sleeper cars (+29 stored in Thunder Bay)
14 Service cars (+6 empty shells in Thunder Bay)

Adding just the 10 ex-Amtrak LRC cars would effective increase the number of Renaissance coach/chair cars available for sleeper trains by 33%.

The argument there aren't enough Service cars available isn't quite true, as there were 6 Service car shells in Thunder Bay. I'm certain some of the sleeper shells could be finished out as Baggage and Baggage-Transition cars too. Leaving the problem as to how to build more Club and Dining cars? Sleeper shells were available.

electricron wrote:Since VIA is upgrading 25% of the Budd Chateau sleeper cars with larger suites, why aren't they also upgrading Renaissance sleepers too, at least building some of the Renaissance shells in Thunder Bay to this layout?

I'm not quite sure why they would need to. The new layout of the other sleepers for The Canadian is tailored to a travelling "elite" if you will, which makes more sense for a train that is more often used by people travelling for the sake of travelling (with a hefty price tag), while the Renaissance sleepers run on The Ocean, which tends to be more frequently used for actual intercity travel (as compared to the Canadian anyways). I would have thought that adding more economical single-occupancy rooms to Renaissance cars would be a better upgrade, rather than adding more expansive suite type rooms. But besides, as far as I know, the Thunder Bay cars are already gone (if they're not and someone knows that, please correct me).

electricron wrote: As for the apparent lack of Renaissance coach/chair cars to support additional sleeper trains, why not return to service the 10 ex-Amtrak LRCs Via inherited 10 Amtrak which are parked at VIA's headquarters in Montréal.
That could be an additional 10 car LRC train, or two 5 car LRC trains that could replace Renaissance coach/chair cars in corridor service. At least make available 10 more coach/chair Renaissance cars for the Ocean and Chaleur trains.

This topic has already been discussed in another thread (http://www.railroad.net/forums/viewtopi ... &sk=t&sd=a- scroll down the page a ways, it gets into discussion on the ex-Amtrak LRCs....also here, on the Amtrak forum: http://www.railroad.net/forums/viewtopi ... amtrak+lrc). There are many reasons why they haven't been put back into service, and likely never will be. You can read through that thread for some good points as to why they're still sitting there.

electricron wrote:Leaving the problem as to how to build more Club and Dining cars? Sleeper shells were available.

The sleeper car shells could have been used for more diners, indeed. The Club cars however, are, just like the LRC Club cars, just modified coaches. So making a sleeper car shell into a club car would be just as much a challenge as making it into a coach.

I can't find a picture of an Ocean consist at the moment, but I know I've seen some European style trains (with the smaller car bodies so to speak) with windows on the side and even overhead windows to a degree - not fully wrap around windows. I thought it would have been nice to make a "lounge" out of a "sleeper shell" but I am thinking they'd have to make the windows larger or do something to add more viewing appeal. The current "Service Cars" on the Ocean just don't cut it as a "lounge" for an "all-day" journey when not operating with the Park Car.

Glad VIA is operating the Park Cars on the Ocean over the Christmas holiday season. Perhaps it is worthy of a trip up north - will check out when they plan on operating the "Touring Class." As for the train to/from Gaspe, even when operating with two Chateau sleepers, they ran full when I was onboard. Occasionally I had to my vacation weeks because they were listed as "sold out." I often wonder if VIA is doing all that it can or should do, with the train from Montreal to Gaspe. Again, I think one improvement would be to operate this train separately from the Ocean - with a 2 +/- hour difference. I have always made it out to Gaspe on my trips, although I know they short-turn the train occasionally. And on these trips, we've often had to wait for a "late" eastbound Ocean.

jp1822 wrote:Glad VIA is operating the Park Cars on the Ocean over the Christmas holiday season. Perhaps it is worthy of a trip up north - will check out when they plan on operating the "Touring Class.".

That's great, for those who can afford to go Touring class.

Personally, I'm just glad to hear VIA will be operating the Budd consist again, so I can get on one of the days it is running. The Skyline dome is such a better option than the Renaissance service cars, when it comes to coach and even economy sleeper passengers who are forbidden access to the Park car.

Reservia has been updated to show that the former-Chaleur will operate separate from the Ocean for about two weeks commencing 18 Dec. It will run ahead of the Ocean ex-Montreal and arrive in Matapedia an hour before the Ocean, and on the return will depart Matapedia almost an hour before the Ocean. Because the train does not depart on Christmas Eve and New Year's Eve there will be a two-day layover in Gaspe over those holidays. I guess VIA won't have an excuse to short-turn the train at New Carlisle on the 24th and 31st of Dec. unless there is some other problem other than the usual running late.