Amtrak Downeaster Discussion Thread

I'd say, giving up any land around Deering Oaks is about as likely as Boston saying that they'll use the left field of Fenway for the new West Station. Plus, it would be putting the station on a branch again which NNEPRA is trying to get away from.

Not that it would make a good location for all the reasons mentioned above, but when Amtrak borrowed an ICE high speed train from DB and sent it on a demonstration tour of the US in 1993, upon its visit to Portland they parked it for display and tours on that trackage adjacent to Deering Oaks Park. So there is precedent for using that location as a "station"...

An interesting anecdote that the Downeaster is known out here - and outside of the passenger train community.

A neighbor's daughter will be attending Bowdoin College (Brunswick, ME) come August. Her Mother, sharing her decision with me, noted that "it's really not that isolated; there are busses to Logan. and if she wants to go into Boston, there's a train".

Interesting; I don't recall that ICE train visit. That may well be the last time a train crossed that Park Avenue trestle.

Mr. Norman, congratulations to your neighbor's daughter! Bowdoin is an extremely good school and I hope the young lady loves her time in our state! (I'll also point out that, while it certainly doesn't have the volume of flights that Logan does, our KPWM is a fully-functional airport with flights to both O'Hare and Midway.)

It seems like NNEPRA is more focused on getting the station closer to downtown, rather than off of a branch. And really this accomplishes the main goal of getting it with in walking distance of downtown.

CPF66 wrote: ↑Wed May 01, 2024 10:34 am It seems like NNEPRA is more focused on getting the station closer to downtown, rather than off of a branch. And really this accomplishes the main goal of getting it with in walking distance of downtown.

Listening to the presentation, I definitely think getting off the branch is a main driver. Their assessment is that the "go all the way to Mountain Jct., back into the station, then come back out again" move by itself adds 15 minutes to each run, so 150 minutes/day (* crew members so figure out salary expenses). Plus, having to bring the whole train to a stop, throw the switch and reverse the train fouls the mainline for much of that time. Walkability to downtown is a factor (although it isn't for me personally), but getting off the branch and getting out of paying CCL $50k/year are probably the main drivers IMO.

I am wondering if they couldn't put a DTMF controlled switch on the main line which would speed things up if they were to reactivate the spur in question. That would be a lot faster than having to get ahold of the dispatcher to coordinate the move. As long as they had the track authority on the main they could line the switch shove out, then normalize it before heading east. But if they think they are going to somehow make land for a station appear directly along the main, they are poorly mistaken.

Another question I have, is why did they never build the proposed east leg of the "wye" at Mountain Jct? I know it was mentioned here in the past and I think it was discussed by Amtrak as well. I want to say it was going to be routed behind the county lock up and was going to tie back in at Congress St. It seems like that and running shuttle service to downtown would be the cheaper option to fix the biggest issues.

Since NNEPRA really wants the site of the current Ferguson plumbing showroom for a station, my hunch is that MaineDOT and the city will work with the business to relocate. Their competitor the Granite Group moved out so Warren Avenue a couple of years ago; personally, I'll support anything moving out here to my neck of the woods that isn't weed related.

They never built the wye because they worked out that, once they took the time for the brake test when changing ends in Portland, it would only save five minutes and so it wasn't deemed cost effective.

NNEPRA has wanted to get out of PTC for years, mainly, again, because that is the only station they have to pay rent in. There was a study around the time the Brunswick extension opened that looked at several possibilities, but many of those have since been developed. At the time, they held off because the Thompsons Point project was announced and there was talk of a new arena for the Red Claws (now the Maine Celtics) and a parking garage being built. That project changed drastically from that initial vision and so there's no great reason for the station to be near it now.

markhb wrote: ↑Thu May 02, 2024 12:47 am Since NNEPRA really wants the site of the current Ferguson plumbing showroom for a station, my hunch is that MaineDOT and the city will work with the business to relocate. Their competitor the Granite Group moved out so Warren Avenue a couple of years ago; personally, I'll support anything moving out here to my neck of the woods that isn't weed related.

They never built the wye because they worked out that, once they took the time for the brake test when changing ends in Portland, it would only save five minutes and so it wasn't deemed cost effective.

NNEPRA has wanted to get out of PTC for years, mainly, again, because that is the only station they have to pay rent in. There was a study around the time the Brunswick extension opened that looked at several possibilities, but many of those have since been developed. At the time, they held off because the Thompsons Point project was announced and there was talk of a new arena for the Red Claws (now the Maine Celtics) and a parking garage being built. That project changed drastically from that initial vision and so there's no great reason for the station to be near it now.

The Portland area has a lot of development in the last few years, so any potential station location will be an uphill battle. As for one of your statements, from a business stand point I don't understand how so many pot and vape stores can be built in one area, while having enough business to stay open.

CPF66 wrote: ↑Thu May 02, 2024 7:38 am As for one of your statements, from a business stand point I don't understand how so many pot and vape stores can be built in one area, while having enough business to stay open.

It does seem like a lot, but it's still less than the number of stores that sell hard liquor, and far less than the number of stores that sell beer, wine, and tobacco. We've all been sort of desensitized to how many alcohol/tobacco stores there are, because they've been around for decades. With recreational cannabis stores only being around for a few years, we're more likely to notice them because they're new and different. I also think it's easy to vastly underestimate the number of people who use cannabis, due to the fact that it was still illegal just a few years ago; the people who used it before recreational legalization did so discreetly, which gave us the impression that very few people used it, when in fact it was much more common than we realized.

Eventually the market will settle down, and the weed stores will blend in like everything else. It's also likely that the number of medical (non-recreational) cannabis stores will decrease.

Regarding a potential future Portland train station, I think there's a significant likelihood that MaineHealth (parent company of Maine Medical Center) could propose some kind of arrangement with NNEPRA to use part of the former Maine Central Railroad headquarters property at 222 Saint John Street, perhaps with parking in Maine Med's enormous parking garage that they built next door to 222.

MaineHealth currently has a multi-decade lease at 222 Saint John, and I'll be shocked if they don't eventually buy it outright. The building is currently less than 50% occupied. According to an article in the Bangor Daily News last month, MaineHealth recently expressed interest in turning some of the office spaces in the building into apartments. The building is on the National Register of Historic Places. This could be a very interesting opportunity because there are tax credits available for converting historic buildings into affordable housing, and if a train station was onsite, there may be additional tax credits available that are related to transit-oriented development... all of which would help the project to "score" better in the application process for state and/or federal funding.

Link to BDN article: https://www.bangordailynews.com/2024/03 ... oam40zk0w/

Say everyone, how about chopping down that "not exactly upscale" strip mall and put the new station right where the former station was located?

Portland, Maine
https://maps.app.goo.gl/XBGbK67pxNSvFVZL8

https://images.app.goo.gl/7qgbS16LzU5dW3Vx8

I second Mr. Norman's idea. Get rid of the eyesore and build a proper station - and even include retail space to house the existing tenants of the strip mall if desired.

Its almost as if tearing down the original station was a mistake...

Anyway as for the strip mall I think that one of the ones owned by a developer in the Waterville area, who owns a number of them in Portland and other areas. They would probably sell it for the right price, but the question is if the government would want to pay that without using eminent domain.

I read somewhere, maybe here that moving the station to the mainline would save 5 minutes off just the Portand-Boston run as they have to move to slow on the branch line.

CPF66 wrote: ↑Thu May 02, 2024 9:46 am Its almost as if tearing down the original station was a mistake...

Anyway as for the strip mall I think that one of the ones owned by a developer in the Waterville area, who owns a number of them in Portland and other areas. They would probably sell it for the right price, but the question is if the government would want to pay that without using eminent domain.

Today, we may consider tearing the station down to have been a mistake. But even though it happened before I was born, I have read enough to know a few things about it. First, it wasn't "the city" that tore it down; the station was privately owned by the railroads (probably PTM specifically but I believe MEC was calling the shots), and it was their decision to sell to the developers. Second, at the time, bringing a discount store (Arlan's) and a modern First National supermarket to what was, then and now, an impoverished neighborhood was seen as a great civic improvement.

And I just checked: Union Station Plaza is not owned by a Waterville developer; it's owned by "MMC Realty Corp.", aka Maine Medical Center.