Electric City Trolley Museum in Scranton, PA

BTW, anyone know if car #8534 is operable? I know it's single-ended, but the car seems to be in darn good shape, how hard would it be to modify it for double-ended use?

4534 was a car SEPTA kept with a bunch of PCCs for charters.
It had some structural problems from being outside all the time.
I saw it in Philly not long before they gave it to Elect. City
Mechanically I believe it's OK.

Montclaire wrote:BTW, anyone know if car #8534 is operable? I know it's single-ended, but the car seems to be in darn good shape, how hard would it be to modify it for double-ended use?

Modifying that car would be dicey, especially for museum volunteers, no matter how skilled. The biggest problem would be the weight of the new second platform and control mechanisms. Double ended cars were usually significantly heavier than similar single ended cars because of that second platform. #8534 is a Nearside derived Peter Witt Car from the 1923-26 series of single ended cars ( also known as the 8000 series- and sometimes called 1923-26 Nearsides). Basically that car, like all of the Nearsides, is a relatively under powered lightweight car, and structurally probably couldn't handle that second platform without some major structural alterations. There is a sister series of double ended cars purchased in the same order---the 5200 series---which were basically modified Hog Island Cars, lighter than the Hogs because they were two motored rather than four motored cars. In appearance they are what a modified double ended #8534 would look like. ( and were electrically and mechanically identical to the 8000's) The last of these cars were retired at the same time as the bulk of the 8000's and last ran on Route 46 in West Philadelphia. Electric City has No 5205 from this series in its roster of cars. Since this car is exactly what a "modified" #8534 would become, there really is no need to try to modify that car.

I have been meaning to post a reply but I haven't been near the computer in a few days. I got in touch with someone from the ECTMA, who was able to answer some things I was curious about before joining.

First, I was surprised to hear that ECTM also has cars in storage in Bucks County; there is another location I was previously aware of, that is outdoors and I won't reveal incase a treasure seeker happens to find this post, where three more cars are stored under covers.

There was mention in my inital email concerning the ratio of rolling stock to excursion enhancement. Apparently I am not the only one looking at this aspect, as I was told that it is regarded as a hot button issue throught the museum community. Right now, ECTM feels that their excursion is one of the best available, both in time/distance and variety of scenery and conditions. I would definately agree to it's uniqueness, comprising one of the longest trolley tunnels in existance, numerous bridges, road crossings, long spans in wooded areas, a historic route, and as was pointed out, the ability to really open the cars up and show what they can do. I am quite sure that making the existing route longer, even by a few miles, probably would be too long for the average rider. This takes several options off the table, but also leaves the door wide open for an entirely new second route, hopefully one that would offer several different experiences, same as the existing route.

Work continues on car #80, which I believe only needs truck repair, and was supposed to be back in operation for this season, but was sidelined by improperly rebuilt motors. Car 5205 should be almost completely restored, but with added work caused by car 80 and emergency repair to workhorse 76, I would not be surprised to hear that the finish date has been pushed back. I am told they are looking at Scranton Railway 324 next, which I have not seen, but I know it's pretty bad. If anyone has pics, please post. While it may make more sense to work on a better car, it is an original Scranton car, so I suppose they are obligated. Car 324 is a 1903 Brill, a much larger car that what they operate now, so I do not know if they will actually run it or chose to leave it indoors and not expose it to the rigors of excursion duty.

Speaking of Brill, the #7 brill liner mentioned as being left to the elements in the Steamtown yard is to be used as a 'parts car,' and has problems beyond the decaying roof. They are planning to eventually restore brill liner #9, which has a decent car body but is missing electrical and mechanical bits that can be found on #7. I still extended my offer to help cover the car if necessary.

As for car 8534, I didn't know the extra controls added that much weight to the chassis. Seems a shame to just leave it sit there, but if it has structural problems, maybe it's better off as a static display. It does have a good lean to it, but I figured it just needed a little suspension work. What would be required to run a single-ended trolley on the existing line, a loop somewhere to allow it to turn around?

I did suggest that the line at PNC field be extended so that it follows the outfield wall and terminates near the stadium club, and in so doing shows off the trolley to the thousands in attendance. I don't know if they really would have any interest in doing that however. What does it cost to lay track these days and run wire? I can't imagine it's anything short of phenomenally expensive.

I hope all of you are correct with plans/hopes for more operable cars and possibly additional routes/mileage. However I have noticed a concerted effort to reduce the number of paid staff and reductions in the days of operation since the new administration took over Lackawanna County government. Frankly, I am hearing of deteriorating morale and rumors of even more reductions in hours/operations next year.

Montclaire wrote:
As for car 8534, I didn't know the extra controls added that much weight to the chassis. Seems a shame to just leave it sit there, but if it has structural problems, maybe it's better off as a static display. It does have a good lean to it, but I figured it just needed a little suspension work. What would be required to run a single-ended trolley on the existing line, a loop somewhere to allow it to turn around?

That lean was a characteristic of the Nearside and Nearside dervied cars. Almost all of the cars developed that "lean to port" at some point. Harold Cox, in Surface Cars of Philadelphia, 1911-1965 attributes that lean to the weight of the control area on the left side of the single ended cars. The 8000's had trucks which were slightly offset from the car center to try to compensate for this---thus, unlike the trucks on the 5200 series, they were paired as front and rear trucks, and were not interchangeable. This would pose an additional problem in making 8534 double ended.

Building a loop to turn the single ended car would be ideal, however the same thing could be accomplished by building a "wye". Using a wye would involve more maneuvering than simply running a car around a loop, but wyes were often used where it was not possible to construct a loop. ( I once watched a Route 34 PCC car "wyed" at 52nd & Baltimore Ave. The car was west bound on Baltimore, and after it discharged its passengers at 52nd Street-- yours truly included----, it was backed into a short stretch of track on 52nd Street which remained from Route 70 days, cleared a switch on that segment, which was then aligned to allow the car to turn east into Baltimore Ave. to run back into Center City.) LVT Liberty Bell Limited Cars ( particularly the single ended 1000's) were also wyed at 69th Street for their return trips to Allentown.

Its a shame about Brilliner No. 7. It has the distinction of having been the last "conventional" ( ie last Red Arrow) car to be run in revenue service on the former Red Arrow rail lines before the Kawasakis took over.

Well we can only hope that the pocket books are opened back up soon, as is with most administrations. Usually the first year is very lean, and then the hiring and spending begins. I do not know how much the repair of #80 is costing, as the trucks were already rebuilt and had to be done over; I suppose if they sent them back to the shop that had promised to rebuild them the first time, that they may not have to pay the second time. Car 5205 is being restored through a PennDot grant, so that is basically a freebie. One has to figure that with three operational cars, maintenance chores will now be greatly increased, and this will slow restoration work of other cars. If the next car slated for work truly is the Scranton 324, even if funding falls short, if there was ever a car that could be aided by local fundraising, I would have to think that an original Scranton car would qualify. And, even with proper funding, you're looking at a LOT of work, so hopefully things will work out.

I agree that the current line is a very interesting, diverse & pleasent,
but also the distance doesn't need to be increased.
i.e. on a single track line you want to get the customer out & back within a 1/2 to 3/4 hour so you are ready to run the next trip. The side trip to the iron furance is also another reason to ride the trolley.

Extending their line is easier then most as they use freight RxR tracks, so they just have to put up wire. Now with a place to go, like the baseball statium you have a reason to extend the line & charge accordinly. They might also consider making one of their cars into a dinner car ... East Troy does that.

From the reports it appears that the "friends" are making progress ... GREAT !

At Branford 1888 trailer 197 has been repaired structurally so we can tow it without worrying that it will collapse in the middle. Meanwhile restoration work continues with the goal of including her in a El Train ... sandwiched beteen 1349 (1905) & 1227 (1903) or even a four car train if we add "G" (41 1878).

Montclaire wrote:Do the lightweight cars have MU controls? In addition to number 80, ECTM also has a sister car, number 85, but in what condition I do not know. The Laurel Line usually ran cars in tandem, and I suppose there may be a point when ridership may demand more seating. Car 80 is still out for truck work, and I have never had the opportunity to ride it, so I can't compare it to car 76.


As such, it only makes sense that ECTM should restore car 85, assuming it and car 80 can be run in tandem.

The Red Arrow 80 Series Brill Lightweight Cars ( Nos 80 & 85) were not MU and could not be run in tandem. On the Red Arrow, after the pre Center Door Car interurbans were retired ( in 1949) the only MU cars on the system were the Center Door Cars ( No 76 and its sisters) and the 1949 St. Louis PCC type interurbans. These two types were run during peak periods as two car trains.

Though I haven't been to the museum, I did have the opportunity to ride both the 80 series and the Center Door Cars during their time in revenue service on the Red Arrow. As I described in an earlier post, the two types were actually very different in interior appointments and riding characteristics. The Center Door Cars were very spartan in their appointments ( with their rattan seats) and were much slower than the Lightweights. The Lightweights had individually backed leather seating, almost identical to the seating in the P&W's Bullet Cars, except for the absence of arm rests and had a top operating speed of 70 MPH.---- Very different cars.

Anybody know how car 5205 is coming along? It was supposed to be completed by this September, but I didn't hear/see anything.

Just wondering if anyone has heard of any updates? Is 5205 finished? The ECTM has begun fundraising for the resto of Scranton car #324, so I am hoping that means 5205 may be almost done. It would be nice to see another car on the tracks this Spring, maybe they'll finally put #80 back in service as well.

Don't know if anyone here has a contact with the ECTMA, but they might want to take a look at this: http://dallas.craigslist.org/dal/clt/991391895.html
Caught this on craigslist the other day, I believe it's very similar to car #324.

Here's a link to a photo of car 80 in action:
http://bp0.blogger.com/_GmbzLoMsW_8/RsX ... 08-17e.JPG

You may also want to check out the source page for the pic, which has tons of photos of the ECTM route, the old Laurel Line, the gravity railroad, and some Streamtown stock as well: http://frank-dutton.blogspot.com/search ... results=39

Just wanted to post a few updates. Car 80 is once again riding the rails, and has been for a few months now. They are switching back and forth between 76 and 80, so you may want to call ahead if you have a preference. To be honest, I think I prefer 76, even though it's supposed to be a harsher ride and more poorly appointed than car 80.

Car 5205 is probably still a year or more away from completion. I think they only have one full time staffer doing resto work, so I guess it's going to take what it's going to take. Scranton car 324 is still slated to be restored immediately after 5205. As I stated in another thread, it looks like ECTM got a couple cars from the Lake Shore auction, CA&E 453 and Shaker Heights PCC cars 63, 71 and 76. Sounds like they want an operational PCC in their future.

A bit of a snag is on the horizon, though, as two bridges that are part of Interstate 81 are scheduled to be replaced, which could take up to a year or more. ECTM's track passes directly under these bridges, and this will most likely mean that the excursions will have to terminate at some point past the tunnel, and the museum will be cut off from the trolley barn at the SWB Yankee stadium. Hopefully this will not effect ridership too much, and in so doing, effect ticket sales and revenue. They plan to keep car 80 and 76 at the museum itself, which has enough room to store both cars.

The chassis of Scranton car 505, an Osgood-Bradley electromobile, is still rotting away at Rockhill. From what I can gather, ECTMA members stripped the car of just about everything they could, but the chassis and trucks have been left behind. There is some confusion as to what will happen with the car, some have told me the car is too far gone, but updates on the ECTMA site say they had acquired a copy of builders drawings for the car in 2007, and parts from Queensborough Bridge Railway 601 in 2009. I suppose the worst part of this story is that car 505 was saved by the Rail City Museum in the 50's, in what looks to have been full working condition, but neglect over the years has reduced it to nearly nothing. 505 was one of two Scranton Transit cars to make the final run on the line in 1954. I'm thinking of lobbying to have 505 (what's left of it) brought to Scranton and preserved at least under cover to keep it from getting any worse in case it is ever decided that it can be saved through donor parts or another chassis. 505 is one of only two Scranton cars known to survive, not counting a sweeper car.

Queensborough Bridge car 601 as operated


601 as it appeared in 1989


601 shortly before being parted



Scranton Transit 505 today


Link from Rail City with photos of 505
http://www.railcitymuseum.com/RCHM_v.11 ... mpany.html

Montclaire wrote: A bit of a snag is on the horizon, though, as two bridges that are part of Interstate 81 are scheduled to be replaced, which could take up to a year or more. ECTM's track passes directly under these bridges, and this will most likely mean that the excursions will have to terminate at some point past the tunnel, and the museum will be cut off from the trolley barn at the SWB Yankee stadium. Hopefully this will not effect ridership too much, and in so doing, effect ticket sales and revenue. They plan to keep car 80 and 76 at the museum itself, which has enough room to store both cars.

What is the protocol if a common carrier line is underneath a freeway bridge? "Sorry, you'll need to detour for the next n months?" I don't think so...

It just doesn't seem right, or fair, to me...

I suppose it would be business as usual for a "mere" tourist operation to get pushed around by the DOT, but has anyone pointed out that this will have a negative impact on the operation? And of course, the tourist economy of the entire region. I would throw in every relationship I could find in terms of a negative impact analysis, all the way down to fewer hot dogs sold at the ballpark to the people who can't come by trolley to those Yankee games. (Or whatever they're calling the baseball team this coming year.)

This was on speculation from one of the motormen, I imagine they will try to work something out, but there will no doubt be at least a partial interruption in service. I don't think they're going to be working around 600v.