The decline of sleeper trains

Bob Roberts wrote: ↑Mon Jan 08, 2024 11:45 am This nut has been cracked in Europe and is half-cracked here thanks to a growing awareness of GHG emissions from flying, particularly held by Gen Z. Regardless of how you feel about climate science, NightJet has shown us that this market (for 8-10 hour, overnight rail trips in lieu of cheap flights) is substantial and growing.

Did you watch the video I posted earlier. That was not just one train with an overnight train between two terminating cities, it was an overnight train between four terminating cities. In Austria, two trains from Innsbruck and Vienna joined into one, in Germany that one train split and went to Cologne and Hamburg. And that's not counting the cities in between. You will be hard pressed to find that many large cities packed so close together on different rail lines in the USA. Additionally, in Austria and Germany, the federal governments own the rail corridors.

Another point worthy to point out is the lack of business class lay flat seats, opting instead for individual bunks. Why?

electricron wrote: ↑Mon Jan 08, 2024 12:06 pm That was not just one train with an overnight train between two terminating cities, it was an overnight train between four terminating cities. In Austria, two trains from Innsbruck and Vienna joined into one, in Germany that one train split and went to Cologne and Hamburg. And that's not counting the cities in between. You will be hard pressed to find that many large cities packed so close together on different rail lines in the USA.

Not sure I understand your point in this context. The population of Hamburg + Cologne is about 2.6 million people (about the size of metro Charlotte and well less than half of metro Atlanta), and Vienna + Innsbruck is about 1.8 million people (roughly half of Norfolk + RIchmond). Its pretty easy to find city pairs in the eastern half of the US and Canada that substantially surpass these population figures. Is there some dimension of travel demand between cities more than 400 miles apart that I am missing here?

I didn't suggest anything about the possible implementation of this service, I was merely suggesting that the European experience shows that a market exists for overnight rail as a substitute for air. Despite the likely presence of that demand in the US (IMO), I doubt any of us here are foolish enough to round up some investors to create a Brightline-like (Nightline) service that pays NS and CSX for overnight slots on their networks. But perhaps it is useful for us to keep the possibility of that demand in mind?

FWIW there are overnight buses that cater to the 'sleep while you move (slowly)' market. Some with lie-flat.
https://napaway.com/blog/sleeper-bus-usa/ This company operated scheduled overnight DC to Nashville buses, it appears now they just do charters. I'll admit that the failure of these routes to catch on may suggest that the market is not there in the US, but it does show that private operators do see potential when capital costs are low enough.

electricron wrote: ↑Mon Jan 08, 2024 12:06 pm You will be hard pressed to find that many large cities packed so close together on different rail lines in the USA. Additionally, in Austria and Germany, the federal governments own the rail corridors.

The entire NEC is either federally owned or state owned including the Inland Route and Harrisburg.

eolesen wrote: ↑Tue Jan 09, 2024 12:50 am Yeah, I don't think you can really compare the proximity of large population centers within Europe to that in the US.

VIA might be able to do it in Ontario and Quebec. Not so much Vancouver to Calgary or Edmonton.....

As for the GHG awareness... give it time. The next generation will eventually realize that all of the climate awareness initiatives within the EU get wiped out by China's industrial activity.

"TO WEAN THEIR country off imported oil and gas, and in the hope of retiring dirty coal-fired power stations, China’s leaders have poured money into wind and solar energy. But they are also turning to one of the most sustainable forms of non-renewable power. Over the past decade China has added 37 nuclear reactors, for a total of 55, according to the International Atomic Energy Agency, a UN body. During that same period America, which leads the world with 93 reactors, added two." https://www.economist.com/china/2023/11 ... er-country

R36 Combine Coach wrote: ↑Mon Jan 08, 2024 10:48 pm

electricron wrote: ↑Mon Jan 08, 2024 12:06 pm You will be hard pressed to find that many large cities packed so close together on different rail lines in the USA. Additionally, in Austria and Germany, the federal governments own the rail corridors.

The entire NEC is either federally owned or state owned including the Inland Route and Harrisburg.

With S-Line completion you can add DC-Richmond-Raleigh-Charlotte to this roster as well. If I presumptuously add in Raleigh to Wilmington, NC this is more than 1,100 miles of contiguous railroad.

Bob Roberts wrote: ↑Tue Jan 09, 2024 10:23 am

R36 Combine Coach wrote: ↑Mon Jan 08, 2024 10:48 pm

electricron wrote: ↑Mon Jan 08, 2024 12:06 pm You will be hard pressed to find that many large cities packed so close together on different rail lines in the USA. Additionally, in Austria and Germany, the federal governments own the rail corridors.

The entire NEC is either federally owned or state owned including the Inland Route and Harrisburg.

With S-Line completion you can add DC-Richmond-Raleigh-Charlotte to this roster as well. If I presumptuously add in Raleigh to Wilmington, NC this is more than 1,100 miles of contiguous railroad.

You missed "different" in my quote above. The NEC is one long rail line. the extension south is one long rail line. All the cities have an inline configuration. Where is the existing parallel line going to different terminating cities?
Please don't suggest the inland corridor because it and the shoreline corridor terminate in Boston. Please don't suggest the Norfolk Southern and CSX lines south of D.C. because the terminating cities of New Orleans and Miami are much too far away.

electricron wrote: ↑Tue Jan 09, 2024 11:55 am You missed "different" in my quote above. The NEC is one long rail line. the extension south is one long rail line. All the cities have an inline configuration. Where is the existing parallel line going to different terminating cities?
Please don't suggest the inland corridor because it and the shoreline corridor terminate in Boston. Please don't suggest the Norfolk Southern and CSX lines south of D.C. because the terminating cities of New Orleans and Miami are much too far away.

Given the larger size of US cities in comparison to European ones I don't understand the requirement for different terminating cities in the US context, what am I missing?

I think that's a critical element. In Europe the population is more densely concentrated, with a clear distinction between "city" and "country," and there are "last-mile" transit networks, with frequent service, that take you to within walking distance of your front door.

Over here, suppose you take an overnight sleeper from Washington and get off at Route 128; if nobody's meeting you, what's your next move? Stations like Lee Road Shaker Heights (Cleveland) on the Erie, Boulevard Station (Indianapolis) on the Monon, and even Glendale on the SP could have been of little use for travel beyond walking distance without a car.

ExCon90 wrote: ↑Tue Jan 09, 2024 8:20 pm I think that's a critical element. In Europe the population is more densely concentrated, with a clear distinction between "city" and "country," and there are "last-mile" transit networks, with frequent service, that take you to within walking distance of your front door.

Over here, suppose you take an overnight sleeper from Washington and get off at Route 128; if nobody's meeting you, what's your next move? Stations like Lee Road Shaker Heights (Cleveland) on the Erie, Boulevard Station (Indianapolis) on the Monon, and even Glendale on the SP could have been of little use for travel beyond walking distance without a car.

Well, yea. There has never been any doubt that US last mile transportation is much worse than in Europe, but this is an indictment of all US rail travel, it does not disproportionately impact overnight service.

Bob Roberts wrote: ↑Tue Jan 09, 2024 12:40 pm Given the larger size of US cities in comparison to European ones I don't understand the requirement for different terminating cities in the US context, what am I missing?

You missed turning two trains into one train, then turning the one train into two trains effectively created four trains.
I disagree all USA cities are larger than European cities.

Agree that sleepers will never return to WW-2 demand. The business persons need to girt to their destinations quickly. However, there is a real demand for others to use sleepers. Just look at the sold outs at sky high prices on today's Amtrak. A sleeper appears to bring in 4 - 6 times the revenue of a coach. If sleeper prices were about 2 - 3 times a coach fare revenue would still be more than a coach. So why isn't Amtrak buying more sleepers?