Amtrak: Connects US // American Jobs Plan Infrastructure Legislation

charlesriverbranch wrote: ↑Fri Apr 02, 2021 5:34 am Re: Boston to Concord, NH: the problem has always been that New Hampshire won't pay for it.

I'd love to see it extended to Montreal via Lebanon and White River Junction.

My understanding is that the line from just north of Concord to WRJ is, to the extent it still exists, the closest thing in railroading to the Appalachian Trail. Much better bet would be to convince Concord Coach to run their Dartmouth service between Concord or Manch Vegas through to WRJ and catch the revived Montrealer from there.

markhb wrote: ↑Fri Apr 02, 2021 10:10 am

charlesriverbranch wrote: ↑Fri Apr 02, 2021 5:34 am Re: Boston to Concord, NH: the problem has always been that New Hampshire won't pay for it.

I'd love to see it extended to Montreal via Lebanon and White River Junction.

My understanding is that the line from just north of Concord to WRJ is, to the extent it still exists, the closest thing in railroading to the Appalachian Trail. Much better bet would be to convince Concord Coach to run their Dartmouth service between Concord or Manch Vegas through to WRJ and catch the revived Montrealer from there.

Boscawen - West Lebanon went o/o/s in 1982 and was abandoned and scrapped in 1992. The State of New Hampshire bought the ROW for a rail-trail. Anything's possible, of course, but I wouldn't hold my breath for Concord-WRJ-Montreal service to return any time soon.

rcthompson04 wrote: ↑Fri Apr 02, 2021 9:05 am As I told two friends this morning like almost every transportation bill there is a lot of maybes and possibles thrown into the bill to get the needed things done. The viability (not profitable but something a state will pay for down the road) of many of these enhancements is optimistic at best.

I think most of these enhancements in the east coast states are viable long term. Elsewhere I am quite skeptical.

I’ve said for years, I say now, and I will keep saying:

218+51+1

No votes, no action.

Also: Authorizations are not appropriations. The money has to be there, or the projects cannot be bid.

I wouldn't hold my breath for Concord-WRJ-Montreal service to return any time soon,

As someone that grew up in central NH and had family in Burlington VT, I've driven along the entire route many, many, many times. The "major" population centers along the route in NH are Franklin and Lebanon. Interstate 89 which connects Concord to Lebanon is rarely crowded.

The geometry of the route is a challenge as well. Here's a description of the ROW between Concord and Lebanon from the 2003 study.

The abandoned right of way has several severe curves that could cause
speed restrictions for any high-speed passenger operation. There are 83
curves over two degrees, including six that are at least four degrees.

Speaking as someone that would actually use this a few times a year (I live near Boston and have family in Burlington VT), there are far better places to spend infra money long term.

At least some of the lines highlighted as a "future service" route either don't appear to be within Amtrak's purview or would be better served via commuter train:

Philly-Reading:

I would think this would be better served as an extension of the SEPTA Norristown Line or as a separate PennDOT service. I know the idea of a Harrisburg-Reading-Philadelphia train has been floated around by them before (that would work better as an Amtrak run).

NYC-Allentown

I don't see how this couldn't work better as an extension of the Raritan Valley Line with PennDOT chipping in for the cost of operations west of Phillipsburg. Considering the commuter bus market between the Lehigh Valley and NYC an Amtrak service might be more cost prohibitive.

Now a Harrisburg-Reading-Allentown-NYC train would warrant Amtrak's involvement and could be worth looking into.

NYC-Scranton

Again, a service likely better suited to NJ Transit than Amtrak unless there were to be an extension to Binghamton and the Southern Tier.

NYC-Ronkonkoma

This one is interesting as upon further examination it appears to mirror a proposal back in the early 1990s to extend some Empire Service trains to Port Jefferson, providing a "through" service between Albany and Long Island. This new route suggests extensions of existing/future NEC or Empire Service trains providing a one seat ride to central Suffolk County where there are no only employment centers, but also MacArthur Airport and the existing LIRR parking facility which is no doubt frequented by drivers coming from the North Fork where existing rail service is of course woefully inadequate. I would imagine Mineola or Hicksville could be an infill stop.

To echo what some have said above, why only KO and not Montauk (even if just in the summer) is interesting in and of itself. The summertime traffic alone would be an excellent source of revenue and would provide a true express service alternative assuming any Amtrak trains only made stops at (Jamaica?)-(Babylon?)-(Patchougue?)-Speonk-Southampton-East Hampton-Montauk.

Whether the LIRR will be onboard with this or not remains to be seen. Post-pandemic commuter train frequency levels even with the 3rd track to Hicksville and full double iron to KO will surely be a factor in whether or not this gets approved.

Boston-Concord

This I just don't see happening as an Amtrak train at all. It doesn't seem to be an issue of the MBTA not willing to operate the trains, just a matter of NH kicking in the $$$.


It is nice to see Rockland get attention as that looked as if it was a sure thing as a pilot project and wouldn't require any significant track upgrades.

gokeefe wrote: ↑Thu Apr 01, 2021 8:54 pm What a difference $80B makes!

Well , it looks like it took $80b to get you posting again .
Welcome back .

Okay, some comments on the Connects US map:

Yuma-Phoenix-Tuscon: Yep, Union Pacific just needs to rebuild Yuma to Phoenix (UP Wellton Branch needs that work). Amtrak needs to land the station.

Cheyenne, WY: BNSF Front Range subdivision from Denver. But if it can go all the way up and Amtrak gets the Montana Rail Link to carry trains up, they can do Billings, MT. Possible service into South Dakota!

Wichita, KS: Wait... hold on... from Oklahoma City BNSF RedRock to Arkansas City, Arkansas City subdivision through Witchita to Newton... Huh. That's a better routing than what I did Kansas City to Oklahoma City.

Dallas-Houston: That's the Texas HSR route, for sure.

Good point about Kentucky. I cannot see CSX fighting the Senator can you ?

The conservative side of me has a better idea. Lets use the money to make improvements to what we currently have so that OTP improves so we can prove to the Fed that Amtrak can actually run trains in a timely manner. Why start all these new projects just to make more late trains and take equipment that doesn't exists and run it on lines you don't know if people will actually ride.

The union side of me the more work the better.

Nice map Amtrak posted which I believe shows every FRA Feasibility Study made in the last 10 years.
Some have had Tier 1 and Tier 2 EIS studies commenced as well. Few are at the stage I would call construction "bulldozer" ready.
I fully expect the EIS process to be fully implemented on these various proposed passenger rail lines extensions and expansions.

Several HSR projects will accept whatever federal funding that might come their way, via grants and guaranteed loans.
But $80 billion for intercity rail is not going to go far. Shall we total up some of the proposals on the map?
California HSR phase 1 (SF-LA) projects construction to cost $80 billion
Amtrak's State of Good Repair projects construction to cost $33 billion
Amtrak Gateway tunnels projects construction to cost $13.5 billion
B&P Tunnel projects construction to cost $4.5 billion
Texas Central projects construction to cost $20 billion
Brightline West projects construction to cost $8 billion
Louisville to Atlanta projects construction to cost over $11 billion, almost $5 billion alone for the Nashville to Chattanooga sector.
Atlanta to Charlotte projects construction to cost over $8 billion
Atlanta to Jacksonville projects construction to cost between $5 billion and $16 billion depending upon what is built
Atlanta to Birmingham projects construction to costs between $3 billion and $11 billion depending upon what is built
Richmond to Raleigh projects construction to cost $4 billion
Richmond to DC projects construction to cost $4 billion
Front Range projects construction to cost over $2.5 billion
Ohio's 3C projects construction to cost $500 million
St. Paul to Duluth projects construction to cost $400 million
Oklahoma City to Wichita projects construction to cost $100 million

This is not an all inclusive list, I have avoided extensions off the NEC on purpose because it is not readily apparent Amtrak would build and operate them, or whether they would be funded off the NEC state of good repair funds. I also limited the list for new extensions and not increases of services on existing lines.

Subtotal on my list = $216.5 billion
$80 billion is not going to get all of them built.

STrRedWolf wrote: ↑Fri Apr 02, 2021 5:36 pm Yuma-Phoenix-Tuscon: Yep, Union Pacific just needs to rebuild Yuma to Phoenix (UP Wellton Branch needs that work). Amtrak needs to land the station.

Well Mr. Wolf, should this portion of the ConnectsUS proposal move forth, it certainly would be nice if the Phoenix station be part of it.

I once saw it with my own two eyes riding the Sunset during December '63.

It's no surprise that Sprint was using the building. Lest we forget, Sprint was once the trade name for SP Communications, an "alternate" land line service to "Ma Bell". SP "spun it off" to a separate company that became a wireless carrier and has now been acquired by T-Mobile.

But it appears "Wotan" (T-Mobile is German owned) hath decreed that that the station is surplus property, so who knows what its fate will be.

Here in New Jersey we've already spent 500 million dollars in studies for an 18 mile light rail line that hasn't had a shovel full of dirt moved. I'm guessing 80 billion dollars will just about be enough to pay politically connected research groups to do the studies for the new routes we'll never live long enough to see. (Although I think it is possible Ohio may get some new service.) We've been studying rail service to Scranton since 1985.

electricron wrote: ↑Sat Apr 03, 2021 9:21 am But $80 billion for intercity rail is not going to go far. Shall we total up some of the proposals on the map?
...
Amtrak's State of Good Repair projects construction to cost $33 billion
Amtrak Gateway tunnels projects construction to cost $13.5 billion
B&P Tunnel projects construction to cost $4.5 billion

33+13.5+4.5= 56 billion.
Gateway and B&P are technically critical... and I think shovel ready. They're past Final EIS.

Politically it's serving places all over the country. Aside from Alabama and Florida, I wonder how many state ruling parties don't want it. I had the impression support was strong the in Midwest in both parties, but that may have changed, for example the nixing by Indiana in 2019 and by Ohio in 2015 . In Northern Virginia, the multi-billion dollar state announcement last week was bipartisan, courtesy of a Congress member with a mixed rural-suburban district there. It's not clear if the multi-trillion dollar Biden Jobs Plan, a.k.a. infrastructure plan, will be one big 51-50 package or a series of negotiated packages.

An alternative wish list would be entirely different: fix the snarls at major cities. Elevate the train in Chicago. Reroute the Acela northward in Connecticut, either at New Haven, or the Obama-era plan, at New Rochelle. And fund economical projects to extend regionals station-by-station, where ridership is expected. I wonder if long-distance sleeper rates are too high. The thing is, decent motel/hotel rooms in the boonies run under $75. But double that, at least, in any high-growth area. It's a conundrum. Amtrak is running a special on the Autotrain, $90 + $260 for the car. The roomette is $300.

As far as conservative vs. union perspectives, it's sobering to read and hear attitudes in other forums and media. From the 2016 derailment in Chester, PA, via Wikipedia (checked the source at the Washington Post): "One of the track workers had taken oxycodone and the other had taken cocaine. The engineer had taken marijuana." On the other hand, environmentally we need to give up on sprawl, and rail drives smart development. The soaring cost of real estate mitigates those benefits for the rising middle class though.

While the proposed service improvements out of Boston are great, there are some things about them that could be better.

Boston North Station to Concord, NH is good, but that is something the MBTA should be doing. The State of New Hampshire owns the rest of the line to Lincoln, NH and there are existing station facilities in Tilton, Laconia, Weirs Beach, Meredith, Ashland, Plymouth, and Lincoln used for excursion services by the Plymouth & Lincoln Railroad.

The Downeaster service to Rockland is also good, but there are other places in Maine that train could go to also, like Auburn/Lewiston, Augusta, or Bethel.

Boston South Station to Albany is also good. Plus it kills two birds with one stone and improves Worcester-Springfield.

Once Worcester-Springfield is improved, routing more trains from New York to Boston becomes easier. I wonder if that is why routes like the Silver Star and Silver Meteor only go up as far as New York. They supplement the Northeast Corridor services pretty well from New York to Washington.

More regional rail is a good thing; I belong to a social/activities club and we were looking at places to go for our winter and summer weekend getaways. Chartering a bus is expensive and we had an issue with a 15-passenger van breaking down halfway to North Adams, so we took the Downeaster and it was very useful. There needs to be more trains like that!