(Rochester) How about a Yates Dock hike this Sunday?

OH SO CLOSE!!!!!!

This may be as close as we can get but not quite what we need. First off, my computer has a tool which lets you blow up whatever is on the screen by 100%, 200% etc. Up around 400% it gets a bit pixelated but still has some good info.

The shot must be after 1909 because the Charlotte Docks is visible in the distance. The site lists it as "1911?". On the foreground is the two-track Charlotte main, with a third track coming off. So this is Double Track Junction. For those who went on the hike a couple weeks ago, we did not come quite this far north but agreed there had been a third track which went was parallel to the 2 mains. Looks like a car or truck straddling that 3rd track.

Next, note on the left side of the shot, about a third of the way up from the bottom, you can see a hopper car mostly hidden by a tree. This likely was on the track (or 2 tracks) which came up from the South Yard between the Main and the river.

This last, I'm not sure if I'm seeing things or what, but directly above that truck, it almost seems I can see cars on the curved track which we suggested was for empties, which came around as the north leg of the wye and tied into that 3rd track. I have heard speculation that for a short time Yates Dock and Charlotte Dock were both in use at the same time. This might confirm that.

So we still don't know just how the trestle looked or exactly how cars were handled but it's sure more clear than before we walked!

I'll try to upload the pic here, but if it works better for y'all on your computers here's the link: http://libcat.rmsc.org/aquabrowser/show ... e+river%5D" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Here are a couple more. The first is from the end of Stutson St. (no bridge yet). River St. on the left, descending. Note the RW&O activity across the river. The second appears to be taken from the lighthouse bluff, looking up river. Note the NYC station about dead center. Note also the Stutson St. bridge approach construction on the (today's Irondequoit) other side. Dates around 1915-1916 I guess.

Don, I think the curved track to the dock was much further south from the junction. Also, I can't make out the hopper in the trees. Can you give me a little more to go on?

Kevin, are you able to enlarge the image somehow? I am NOT a computer guy so I can't say what it is that I have. But across the bottom of my screen where the icons are arranged in a bar, there is one labeled "magnifier". That lets you select the degree of magnification in increments of 100%. I go to 300% or 400% on this. Let me tinker and see if I can enlarge, save, then post it.

At the bottom of the pic, it's labeled "From the Albert R Stone negative collection". About straight up from the "Al" in Albert, just to the left of the tree, there is a black spot. When magnified, I'm 95% sure that's a rail car - and about in line with that farther to the right I believe you can see a track or tracks.

As for the north leg of the wye, what I THINK I am seeing is back a ways to the south but I can't say for sure it's that track. I went on Google Maps to get a better look, and damned if they didn't update the view with something very recent, with the trees all leafed out. Is there a way to bring up the older view which had bare trees and thus a better view of the embankments?

BR&P wrote:Interesting pic, good find! Note the laker headed out toward the lake just past the swing bridge.

Sadly the detail is crappy - over near the river it's all distorted when I blow it up. It does NOT clearly show any tracks so we might guess this is just after the Charlotte Docks trestle became operational and the two tracks from the South Yard to Yates Dock have been removed?

as you can see in between 2 tracks, there are on-going filling. I'm wondering if that was for the sharp U-turn track going to dock for loading/unloading train cars on/off the boats? (as shown in the map that had link posted immediately after your posting)

Any chance that "Duffy" related to the former Mayor Duffy?

Ken, the fill being created in that pic would be well north of Yates Dock, and I don't think it's related. And I'm a bit skeptical about the accuracy of that second map. As shown, there appears to be no connection of the tracks there - the one looks like it leaves the main and goes straight to Charlotte, while the other curves around to the trestle and does not appear to have any other connection. BYW, Yates Dock only transferred coal to the boats, not entire rail cars like the Genesee Dock which was constructed farther south.

While looking up something unrelated some years ago, I found a rough sketch of the Yates Dock trackage and copied it down. I'll have to start pawing through stuff to see if I can find it, although no guarantee it had enough detail to help us out here.

No idea about Robert Duffy, although that was a fairly common Irish surname. We also had Duffy Carting Company, and Duffy's Tavern, and probably more.

BR&P wrote:Ken, the fill being created in that pic would be well north of Yates Dock, and I don't think it's related. And I'm a bit skeptical about the accuracy of that second map. As shown, there appears to be no connection of the tracks there - the one looks like it leaves the main and goes straight to Charlotte, while the other curves around to the trestle and does not appear to have any other connection. BYW, Yates Dock only transferred coal to the boats, not entire rail cars like the Genesee Dock which was constructed farther south.

While looking up something unrelated some years ago, I found a rough sketch of the Yates Dock trackage and copied it down. I'll have to start pawing through stuff to see if I can find it, although no guarantee it had enough detail to help us out here.

No idea about Robert Duffy, although that was a fairly common Irish surname. We also had Duffy Carting Company, and Duffy's Tavern, and probably more.

Yeah. I wasn't sure if it was that. I looked at pic and map and somewhat is similar. But I'm not familiar with that area. That's why I was bringing it up.

Yes. when I saw the map showing that trains goes right up to the dock, instead of by side. and I was wondering about rail boats since no one had mentioned that before. And I thought that either the map was wrong or no one ever mentioned about it. But heck that was 1902 and nobody in this group were born that time.. haha.

I did noticed that the track went straight through RW&O without connection and had a loop that I was not aware of. I was wondering if that was error too...

I didn't realize there's more Duffy in Rochester that you just mentioned. Mayor Duffy was only one I know of... LOL.

Thanks for clear it up...

Ken, at one time the NYC&HRRR did indeed cross the RW&O up there. The loop was at Ontario Beach, and there are pics of excursion trains on it back somewhere about the 1890s. Excursion trains to the beach were a big deal back then and there were a lot of them.

I have in my collection a train order from 1891, and believe it or not there is no month nor date. But it was to C&E of 197 at Otis. "Run extra to Charlotte and back. Keep sharp lookout for coal trains. Two West Shore special trains will leave Rochester today for Ontario Beach the first at 10:45 AM and the 2nd at 11:20 AM. Returning leave Ontario Beach at 6 K and 6:05 PM. Keep out of the way of these specials in both directions." Order was received at 10 K AM (The "K" means 10:00)

Before the start of the text is the number 13 in a circle and at the end is the number 12 in a circle. I never learned all the telegraphic codes, and they likely varied from one place to another. But I would guess they had to do with confirmation, or ensuring the specifics. This order BTW was NOT a form 19 nor form 31 - just "Telegraphic Train Order". The names at the bottom are Carr and Holman, or perhaps Hohman.

My scanner died and I have not gotten around to replacing it, or I'd post a copy here.

OK, you'll have to bear with me on this. A couple of posts backs, I kidded BR&P about his first railroad job, scrapping out wood boxcars. (Yes, it was Despatch and the photo was taken in 1910 or 1911.) Although there is a resemblance, it's not him since he's smart enough not to walk on the tops of cars ...
With regard to scrapping boxcars, nothing went to waste - scrap iron was recycled as was the lumber. Houses, buildings, etc. of a certain vintage incorporated the reused lumber and it is not uncommon (as mentioned elsewhere on this site) for home remodelers to discover logos, reporting marks, etc. in newly exposed walls, etc.

I was planning to provide the following photograph (without much description) as a typical application ...
... ... but found the attached RMSC narrative compelling:

"A large cement block building is surrounded by a high fence. It is located at Railroad Street and the Public Market and belongs to Joseph Galbo, son-in-law of Sam Ollis, the "banana king" of the Rochester Public Market. Joseph Galbo, 28, and his brother Domenico Galbo, 26, were arrested for complicity in the killing of Francesco Manzello, 33. [Rochester Herald, May 17, 1912: "Joseph Galbo trial again postponed"]."

"Similar to Stone photographic negative #3304 (RMSC), which was printed in the Rochester Herald, November 1, 1912. Francesco Manzello, 33, was reputed to be a member of the Black Hand, and had been involved in several extortion cases. Apparently he blackmailed once too often and was murdered by other members of the gang. He was supposedly killed on the premises of Joseph Galbo near the Rochester Public Market and dismembered. His remains were packed into a barrel which was left in a gully in Webster, near a power station belonging to the Rochester & Sodus Bay Trolley Line. The trolley line ran along the old Ridge Road, and the power station was not far from the intersection of Ridge Road (later Route 404) and the Webster Road (later Route 250), near the "Webster State Road". The Black Hand, or Mano Nera, was "any of several extortion rackets run by immigrant Sicilian and Italian gangsters in the Italian communities of New York City, Chicago, New Orleans, Kansas City and other U.S. cities from about 1890 to 1920. It consisted of sending threatening notes to local merchants and other well-to-do persons - notes printed with black hands, daggers, or other menacing symbols and extorting money on pain of death or destruction of property. The Black Hand declined with the entry of Prohibition and big-moneyed bootlegging." - Encycl. Britannica, vol. 2, p. 254, col. 3b. According to other sources, the Black Hand had its roots in the Sicilian Camorra organization."

Yes, there are photos of the barrel, the dismembered body, etc., but I won't share them here. What caught my eye was the following caption on another photo:

"Frank C. Smith, 18, of West Penfield, was checking the animal traps he had set when he discovered the dismembered body of Francesco Manzello in a gully in Webster. Smith wears a cloth cap and a sturdy jacket."

The handsome young man was my grandfather. Small world, huh?
...

I keep waiting to see what this has to do with Yates Dock.......