Poor SIRT

Went to Staten Island today and rode the SIR (SIRT) from St. George to Tottenville. Wow, is that railroad in poor shape. The equipment is dirty, cars seem to be in poor shape, the stations are disasters and the whole railroad seems ready to fall apart. To me it's worse than the Franklin Avenue Shuttle before it was upgraded.

Fares are collected only at St. George; northbound most of the people get off at Tompkinsville and walk to St. George, thereby avoiding the fare. Wow, what a great city; we have the MTA crying the poverty blues but yet people are riding this line from station to station scot free. If ridership is measured by the fares paid at St. George, boy this line is some waste of taxpayers dollars, but this is a farce since no fares are collected anywhere else on the line.

What wil probably happen is the MTA will say the line is not profitable; after all only people at St. George are paying a fare. They'll probably move to abandon it or convert it to a bus rapid transit line. Oh heaven forbid if that happens.

Unless the MTA puts some money into this line, it's going to fall apart. To start off with, they need new cars (subway cars are not the answer for this line) and major station repairs. Heavy duty maintanence to the right of way is in order. I'm sure I'm whistling in the wind.

UpperHarlemLine4ever wrote:Went to Staten Island today and rode the SIR (SIRT) from St. George to Tottenville. Wow, is that railroad in poor shape. The equipment is dirty, cars seem to be in poor shape, the stations are disasters and the whole railroad seems ready to fall apart. To me it's worse than the Franklin Avenue Shuttle before it was upgraded.

Fares are collected only at St. George; northbound most of the people get off at Tompkinsville and walk to St. George, thereby avoiding the fare. Wow, what a great city; we have the MTA crying the poverty blues but yet people are riding this line from station to station scot free. If ridership is measured by the fares paid at St. George, boy this line is some waste of taxpayers dollars, but this is a farce since no fares are collected anywhere else on the line.

What wil probably happen is the MTA will say the line is not profitable; after all only people at St. George are paying a fare. They'll probably move to abandon it or convert it to a bus rapid transit line. Oh heaven forbid if that happens.

Unless the MTA puts some money into this line, it's going to fall apart. To start off with, they need new cars (subway cars are not the answer for this line) and major station repairs. Heavy duty maintanence to the right of way is in order. I'm sure I'm whistling in the wind.

I think the present equipment is the right stuff to operate on this line.
Under the B. & O. ownership and operation they had heavyweight MU
cars that were quite similar to some subway cars and those old cars
served the line quite well.
The B. & O. used to sell tickets at St. George and also at some of the
wayside stations along the line too. Single trip and commutation tickets
were both used and if you got on the train at a station that either was not
staffed for your train or had no agent, the conductor would sell you a
ticket and punch out a cash fare receipt in the grand old matter.
I think the best fare system today for this line would be a POP system,
vending machines at the stations and armed guards on the trains checking
the tickets. I know there are people on here who will say that this will
never work but it could work and does work many places.
I have not ridden this line in some time but as for the cars, there is NO
reason that they can't be maintained in a clean and presentable condition
for public use.
Noel Weaver

UpperHarlemLine4Ever,

How fast did the trains go? 55mph?

I thought the speed limit there was 60 or 44 mph.

Well, the line is not being maintained and cars and stations are in horrorble shape. To let you know, the equipment still has the old two-toned MTA M on the cars. That went out 20 years ago. The cars are dirty inside and out. The platforms are in sorry shape with among other things piles of pigeon droppings in many locations.

As far as speed as someone asked, I would say the 4 trains we rode on didn't go more than 35-40 mph, tops.

Don't think the MTA is spending much money at all on the line. By the way, just found out that the MTA is going to put turnstiles or a turnstile at Tompkinsville, so perhaps that will generate a little more revenue from the line.

Oh ok, I see. Wow I can't believe the whole line is in decrepid condition like Boston's Red Line was 20 years ago. As for the "M" Logo, it was actually in place in subway cars till around 1994-95, when the new Pac-Man Logo came, but SIRT has been neglected with that, and I guess you can easily say that the SIRT is the "bastard child" line of the NYCTA system.

And I guess the track must have not been fixed, since those speeds are about the same as the MBTA Braintree extension of the Red Line minus the 50MPH codes.

I think a POP system might work if there were enough enforcement agents and the fine was high enough to discourage fare beating. It is apparently working on the Hudson County Light Rail.

BTW I checked the distance on my NYC Hagstrom street map from Tompkinsville to the ferry terminal. It looks like a little over a half-mile. Worth saving $2.00? Well maybe on a nice day!

The POP system won't work. This is New York, not Europe. The concrete on a number of platforms is crumbling. It's pretty bad. Cars don't look like they've been washed in months.

As far as the people getting off at Tompkinsville, I had heard about this and my first reaction was that no one would want to walk that distance to save $2.00. Well guess again; the train that I was on practically emptied out at Tompkinsville. If there were eight or ten people getting of at St. George, that was a lot.

UpperHarlemLine4ever wrote:The POP system won't work. This is New York, not Europe. The concrete on a number of platforms is crumbling. It's pretty bad. Cars don't look like they've been washed in months.

As far as the people getting off at Tompkinsville, I had heard about this and my first reaction was that no one would want to walk that distance to save $2.00. Well guess again; the train that I was on practically emptied out at Tompkinsville. If there were eight or ten people getting of at St. George, that was a lot.

You say POP won't work, I say put enough guards on the trains, check the
tickets every trip and put the penalties stiff enough and POP will work out
very well.
We have Tri-Rail here in Florida which runs into Miami which is probably
a bigger crime area than Staten Island is and POP works out very well,
they check tickets just about every trip, no ticket, no ride and a heavy
penalty as well. Names are often run for warrants as well. It is very
effective.
Noel Weaver

Yeah, POP should be able to work in the SIRT. Also the Baltimore MTA has a POP system as well with their light rail service, and it's enforced pretty good along with San Jose, CA's light rail system.

You know what, we're supposed to be train enthusiasts. The SIR is supposed to be a railroad. Who collects or checks tickets on a railroad; not a guard but a conductor. I've really said enough on this poor neglected railroad. Hope that someone in power will take notice of these postings and give some attention to this stepchild of the MTA. It shouldn't be part of the NYCTA but rather part of MTA Railroad (which is what LIRR and Metro-North are). BTW, their police officers were finally made part of the MTA Police. That took forever to happen; glad for them. However, even there, their cars still say Transit Police SIR and not MTA police. Again, enough said.

That's a good idea you have about making the SIRT part of the Metro-North or LIRR. Making it a commuter network and not a rapid transit. I remember riding the SIRT line back in 1999 and soetime though, the train did like 49 mph in some spots but I'm sure that the track's condition has actually lowered the speed limit on the ROW nowadays.

If the MTA really considered this their "stepchild" then why wouldn't they just abandon the line all together? I'm sure they are not making a profit off of it. Why don't they just get rid of it then? Contrary to popular belief the MTA really IS here to make sure everyone can get around the area conveniently.

Collecting tickets on it? Can you imagine that? This is a line run like a subway and I think it works well. I also am a fan of keeping the R44s there, they need subway cars there to take the abuse and keep up with the schedule.

The only negative thing I can say is the fare system is pretty stupid if you ask me. They really need to install turnstiles at all the stations. Most of the people entering or exiting from the ferry terminal are transferring to or from the subway on the other side anyway so they don't pay anything extra to ride the train.

arrow wrote:Collecting tickets on it? Can you imagine that?

Don't have to imagine it; I remember it. Tickets were collected on SIR trains into the 1990's. Many blame the line's deterioration on cessation of that practice.

I think they're right. SIR trains were among the cleanest and most orderly in the NYCTA when they had conductors. Afterward, lack of supervision and fare control led to heightened vandalism and the occasional rolling drug deal. The problem got lots of press initially. Though I witnessed no mischief on my last trip there, the state of the cars' interiors showed that those problems still exist.

I see no reason why the line should get commuter equipment. As Mr. Weaver points out, even the B&O ran transit equipment on it. Trip time is no longer than most subway/el lines in the city, and stations are spaced accordingly. Sure, it's under FRA jurisdiction. But so what? Do we change equipment for bureaucracy's sake?

I do support having POP on the Staten Island Railway. In fact, I believe it's long overdue.

Here's how I'd do it:

Ticket vending machines would be at all SIR stations and accept cash, credit and debit cards. They would sell the following tickets:

SIR single ticket (with free transfer to NYCT buses/subway): $2
SIR 10-ride: $17 (15% discount)
SIR and SI bus only monthly: $20
Weekly MetroCard: $24
Monthly MetroCard: $76

You know, I said I wouldn't make any further comments on this issue but something has come to my attention that you must be made aware of. The MTA is studying this thing called BRT (Bus Rapid Transit) and one of the 2 routes that they are considering basically parallels SIR. So their game plan may be in fact to eliminate SIR in the future. Only time will tell. In the mean time not one penny is being spent to upgrade in any way the SIR. There are no capital improvement projects. No plans for repair or improving stations; oh I'm sorry there is a plan which they've had on the books for years but never acted on to eliminate Atlantic and Nassau and build a new station in the middle of the two stations mentioned. That's all I'm going to say.