Photos of 1987 Amtrak Chase, MD accident

gp80mac wrote:Ahh... so it was the "culture" that caused that worthless excuse of a man to get stoned and blow a stop signal.

His decisions that day killed a lot of people.

It was the culture that allowed him to continue to work despite obvious flaws. He made poor decisions, but others in the industry were making the same poor decisions and no one seemed to take it seriously. After all, what is the problem with a little weed? Add in a conductor who didn't like to work and was too busy to watch signals. He was not in control of his train. Add to that supervisors and others who decided some rules were not worth following and some upgrades were not worth completing. Yes, the culture of the business was poor.

justalurker66 wrote: Add to that supervisors and others who decided some rules were not worth following and some upgrades were not worth completing. Yes, the culture of the business was poor.

So it doesn't matter that Gates was the linchpin in the whole situation?

I'm sure Amtrak would not have turned down any handouts/donations for those upgrades. Is anyone willing to step forward and offer up the necessary contributions, above and beyond full fare value of a ticket here and there?

Yes; the accident happened but it was NOT due to the failure of the system in place. The human element was involved. If someone had to tamper with the systems (which eventually lead to the failure of that overall system), then that's essentially sabotage and an unfair judgement of that system. The system has to fail on its own for their to be a reason to blame the integrity of the system as a major cause of the accident.

mlrr wrote:So it doesn't matter that Gates was the linchpin in the whole situation?

The way the railroad was being operated someone was going to mess up. Gates picked the short straw. Willing through his intentional neglect, but there was a lot of intentional neglect going on and being overlooked on the railroads ... someone was going to be the linchpin of some major event.

mlrr wrote:Yes; the accident happened but it was NOT due to the failure of the system in place. The human element was involved. If someone had to tamper with the systems (which eventually lead to the failure of that overall system), then that's essentially sabotage and an unfair judgement of that system. The system has to fail on its own for their to be a reason to blame the integrity of the system as a major cause of the accident.

Have you read the safety board report? The system is more than just the warning device that "someone" taped until it could not be heard. The system is everyone involved in operating trains safely. Including those who decided the ATC devices were not worth installing down to the supervisors who allowed such poor quality employees behind the controls of potentially deadly equipment. Blaming Gates does not fix all of the other problems in the report.

Add in a conductor who didn't like to work and was too busy to watch signals. He was not in control of his train.

Besides a reverse move since when is a Conductor in control of the train? Gates the Engineer of that train was the one in control and who had full responsibility for the train handling and movement, not the Conductor. I only took a brief read of the thread but it seems you are making excuses for this guy.

From the accident report p.97, linked earlier in this topic:

The two crewmembers of Conrail train ENS-21 were able to observe the tracks ahead and the wayside and cab signal aspects. The Amtrak operating rules required that the perform this function diligently. However, they failed to discharge their duty. In the case of the Conrail brakeman, it was his only responsibility once his train was enroute.

About Amtrak train 94, on p. 98 of the report:

Although the conductor was in charge...

Alright, conductors are in charge rather than in control, and the Conrail engines had a brakeman instead of a conductor.
From Amtrak Operating Rule 34, excerpted on p. 156 of the report:

If a crew member becomes aware that the Engineer has become incapacitated or should the Engineer fail to operate of control the engine or train in accordance with the signal indications or other conditions requiring speed to be reduced, other members of the crew must communicate with the Engineer at once and if he fails to properly control the speed of the train or engine, other members of the crew must take action necessary to ensure safety, including operating the emergency valve.

From Conrail Operating Rule 34, excerpted on p. 163 of the report:

If a train is not operated in accordance with the requirements of the signal indication or restriction, qualified employees located on the leading engine or car must communicate with the engineer at once, and, if necessary, stop the train.

It seems that the brakeman had some "responsibility for the train handling and movement", even if it was not called "control", that he did not perform.

justalurker66 wrote: The system is more than just the warning device that "someone" taped until it could not be heard. The system is everyone involved in operating trains safely. Including those who decided the ATC devices were not worth installing down to the supervisors who allowed such poor quality employees behind the controls of potentially deadly equipment. Blaming Gates does not fix all of the other problems in the report.

That is where I see a flaw in the your logic. Replace the word "System" with "infrastructure". I separated the human element from the infrastructure and given the description of the incident, the infrastructure worked like it was supposed to and would have completely worked had the devices not been tampered with; hence the explanation for sabotage and why it is unfair to blame part of the accident on failure of the infrastructure which is what is being suggested.

mlrr wrote:....hence the explanation for sabotage and why it is unfair to blame part of the accident on failure of the infrastructure which is what is being suggested.

When the word system was used I think the reference was not to the physical plant but to overall managerial control over operations. I don't think anyone questions the way signals, switches and equipment worked. As for the alerter having been tampered with, I think the Safety Board was fairly well convinced that Gates didn't tape it shut, that it was already taped shut.

That they found other locomotives had been tampered with as well. That they questioned why Conrail management was either unaware of this or failed to take steps to stop it.

The system issue the NTSB raised in this incident and others was that there was a lot of questionable conduct involved yet the managers seemed unwilling to confront it. Gates said many of the Conrail crews got high or drank alcohol when they were working. That if you wouldn't get high you were shunned. I believe the NTSB found it hard to believe that no one in Conrail management was aware of this yet there was no corrective actions being taken. In fact it seemed management was ignoring it.

The NTSB had also raised this issue in a number of other incidents where drinking was involved. Where it seemed obvious a crew member had been drunk when they reported for duty yet no supervisor was willing to tell them, "You're not getting on that train, buster. Go home and sleep it off."

My feeling is that society had changed a good deal during the 1970s and '80s and the railroads, like a lot of industries, were getting a different kind of employee. That management had a tough time knowing how to deal with this new employee. That supervisors were maybe unwilling to take someone out of service because they were afraid upper management wouldn't back them up.

And while the system failed (not the infrastructure that was in place but the infrastructure that should have been in place plus oversight that should have been in place) a cultural change against being impaired and operating while impaired has also occurred in the world outside of railroading. As a society we have gone from the attitude of "no harm done - sleep it off" to implementing three strike laws and heavy penalties for being impaired. We, as a society, have decided that we are not going to take it any more.

The attitudes at Conrail were not much different than any other "tough industry" with "real men" who smoked, drank and did a hardened job. Fortunately over the past decades safety has become more than a motto - and even if it makes the job tougher for some the intent is to protect all.

BTW: Sorry for calling the brakeman a conductor.

If I were on the jury I would have voted to convict Gates for his part in the accident. I in no way wish to excuse him BUT I in no way wish to excuse everyone else who received the rebuke of the safety board. If I were on the safety board presented with the same evidence I would have come to the same conclusions they did.

justalurker66 wrote:The attitudes at Conrail were not much different than any other "tough industry" with "real men" who smoked, drank and did a hardened job.

Any good substance abuse counselor (or cop! ) will tell you on-the-job abuse of alcohol or drugs cuts across all occupations and income groups. It wasn't just a blue-collar problem.

Not widely known, but Chief Justice Rehnquist was abusing drugs while on the Supreme Court bench hearing cases! Impossible? It's not.

Lawyers began to whisper that Rehnquist seemed unattentive at times, at times he seemed to be sleeping. His speech was slurred.

Soon the whispers grew louder and finally Rehnquist was forced to confront the problem.

It turned out he had been prescribed drugs for a back condition and I guess he liked the way they made him feel. He began to abuse them.

Below is a link from MSNBC-

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16474383/ns ... m-records/

Here's a link to a 1981 track diagram of the NorthEast Corridor that includes Gunpow Interlocking at Chase, Md.:

http://www.multimodalways.org/docs/rail ... 9-1981.pdf

JimBoylan wrote:Here's a link to a 1981 track diagram of the NorthEast Corridor that includes Gunpow Interlocking at Chase, Md.:

http://www.multimodalways.org/docs/rail ... 9-1981.pdf

The linked diagram represents the railroad as it existed pre NECIP. The track layout at GUNPOW was different at the time of the Chase incident.

There was an earlier discussion about a possible former pocket track that could have also been used for trains that didn't stop when the switch was lined against them. It doesn't show in the 1981 plan, which as you correctly relate, is a different arrangement than at the time of the 1987 wreck.

Hello all, I was a passenger on that Amtrac 94 the Colonial along with my brother. We were 22 and 23 at the time and were returning from DC after a holiday visit with my sister. This is my first time posting about the accident... Our injuries were minor compared to others I received a busted up knee cap and some lacerations and my brother had a concussion and lacerations we were among the "LUCKY ONES" The car I was in was the bar car I had left my brother to get us a few drinks for the ride, after the impact the car was on its side and there was a strong smell of diesel fuel and smoke coming into our car! I remember the seats actually ripped out of the floor from the impact! and one girl was impailed on the metal from the seats thru her side from the impact! I helped the older folks out of the car with two other younger people and then we removed this girl she was taken by ems to the hospital a short time after we removed her from the car and I never did see her again... I want to say that the people of the community of Chase were nothing less than Angels! I was separated from my brother for over an hour and was hopping around looking for him when I was taken in by one of the community residents to warm up and make a few calls to loved ones from their home. They gave me hot beverages and food and i then went out to find my brother After what seemed like hours I finally hear his voice calling out my name! We were taken from the scene hours later to the hospital. Again this was a life changing incident for me and my brother. I have been on trains since but feel very uneasy about it! I am now 48 years old and am retired from the New York City Police Dept I was a first responder at the WTC and lived thru that whole tragic event losing several fellow co workers and my cousin who was a local 3 electrician.
I am not sure why but I felt after all these years I had to get my story out and it feels good. Again thanks to all the community people and first responders of Chase MD God Bless you all!!!!
[email protected]
Ret. NYPD Detective

Ron - Thank you for sharing your story with us. I'm very glad that both you and your brother survived. Your destiny was to go on in your life and help many persons afterwards, I'm quite sure. You, in fact, may be one of the angels here on Earth. (I'll be sending you an e-mail very soon.)
Paul
Ret. Boston Police Sergeant

Yeah that is a pretty good story Ron. Very vivid description. Terrific that you came out of it okay and went on to help people through your service with the NYPD.

I have a number of buddies who are cops (most retired now) and a family member with 28 years on the job with NYPD. I'm very proud of all of them.