Phillipsburg Council removes Transportation Museum from plan

I remember in probably 1997 Netcong, and Phillipsburg battling about the museum. Phillipsburg was a great location, because of its RR history, and the Bel Del Line right there. Their Museum is tiny right now, and their equiptment is mediocre at best. No one ever seemed enthusiastic when I took my kids there to ride behind the #142. That engine would attract more visitors than the museum in its current state.
Personally, I think Whippany would be a good location. They take care of their equiptment, have decent yard trackage, and an up to 10 mile ROW for excursions. Too bad the ROW is privately owned by the M&E. The M&E drove out the Morris County Central because of their demand for $$$. If thats any indication how they operate, the museum wouldn't even consider such a move. Just my opinion

NJTee,

The equipment for the NJ museum is owned by the URHS (United Railway Historical Society) and much of the historical equipment at Whippany belongs to them. URHS equipment is scattered throughout the state a various locations (Morristown, Newfoundland).

If put together, the collection would be a good draw. The problem is the various groups pushing for the museum do not pay to play so the developers get the crooks... oops make that politicians to see things their way.

NJTee -

" Too bad the ROW is privately owned by the M&E. The M&E drove out the Morris County Central because of their demand for $$$. If thats any indication how they operate, the museum wouldn't even consider such a move. Just my opinion "

When did the MCC cease operations out of Whippany ? The current owners/management took over the M&E in the early 1980's, no ?

Whippany Museum seems to have a decent working relationship with the M&E....as does URHS and TSRHS. My personal experience goes back only about 14 years with the M&E....they've always been EXTREMELY accomodative to TSRHS using their property for several extended historical equipment rehab projects as well as storing same on their property. To be frank, we at TSRHS have often asked a great deal or been lax in being good tenants and the M&E has NEVER come down with the hard line....even though they could have - and been in the right - on more than one occasion.

To say they have been railfan friendly would be a distinct understatement IMO.

FWIW....just my .02 as well.

Whippany would be good if there was sufficient room. Note that the proposal was for a large >transportation< museum, trains, buses, trolley, canal, etc. By not just including rail, the attraction is to a much wider range of people. IT would have to be substantially pared down.

Whippany would, of course, be good for longer excursions that could go out onto the M&E and west.

The site of the paper factory between Jefferson Road and Parsippany Road might have made a decent museum site, with highway access. Room for other modes of transportation to be shown too.

cjvrr wrote:The site of the paper factory between Jefferson Road and Parsippany Road might have made a decent museum site, with highway access. Room for other modes of transportation to be shown too.

Great point! I wonder if M&E or URHS ever thought about putting tracks in there to store equipment....

On private property Steve ???

The museum belongs in the train shed at Liberty State Park, in the CNJ terminal. Period.

But... it appears the decision is out of our hands, anyway.

-otto-

rvrrhs wrote:

Ken W2KB wrote:

jmp883 wrote:It sad to see that NJ doesn't think much of it's transportation heritage, and everyone here makes valid points as to why it didn't happen, why it might not happen, and how it could happen.

Rvrrhs made the best point as to why it might not happen:

"... a joining of all the various RR groups in the State..."

Even though we're all railfans each group probably has their own agenda and while I'm sure they would all overlap somewhat I'm sure there would be points of difference as well. And we all know how people get when 'their' project isn't going exactly the way they want.

Well....like the Cutoff project, we can only hope it'll happen one day!

Thats why the URHS (UNITED Railroad historical Society) was formed some ten or more years ago, to make common cause among the splinter groups. The URHS which acquired most of the equipment and material for the proposed museum, organized fan trips, etc. does not have individual members, only organizations can join, and many of the NJ rail-oriented groups did participate. I believe that the URHS did the best it could as volunteers, but was constantly frustrated given the stonewalling by Trenton.

This begs a few questions:

1. How many of us here on Railroad.net are actually members of such organizations? I would join URHS directly or another statewide rail-history group (suggestions?), but I'm not a member of any of the "splinter groups" (unless you count my still-unofficial RVRRHS as one of those). My only membership is in NJ-ARP, and that's because I'm a rail commuter, not because of my interest in rail operations or rail history.

2. How many of us have directly contacted these state officials about the Transportation Heritage Museum (or whatever) issue?

3. How many of us have written letters to the editor regarding this issue?

4. How many of us are even supporters of the idea? Some might oppose it on fiscal grounds, others on partisan issues like where it is to be located, who controls it, etc.

Maybe we need to start a grassroots letter-writing campaign right here and now. There must be hundreds of NJ-based rail fans out of the 5500 registered Railroad.net users, and many probably have at least one friend or family member of like mind. Let's craft a serious, concise letter to our people in Trenton, and I volunteer to lay it out and turn it into a ".pdf" file so we can all print it out and mail it.

rvrrhs makes some good points.
First, I would like to say that I have been personally involved with the NJ Transportation Museum movement since around 1989 when the first proposal was made to place it in Flemington. I rode the Museum excursion from Newark NJ to Flemington. Great fanfare but the idea died.
Then around 1990, I joined the Friends of the NJ Transportation Museum while attending their first annual symposium at Drew University.Number sixteen is this April 1, 2006. I learned a lot about NJ transportation history through speakers and slide and video presentations. I enjoy reading their 6 issues per calendar year newsletter on NJ transportation topics.
As it was mentioned before in this topic, 1997 was a turning point for the museum movement. Phillipsburg, Netcong & Plainfield were considered over Jersey City and South Amboy. As you know, P'burg was selected with Netcong being a satellite site(politics).
I wrote to both assemblymen and state senators and also the governor to hopefully get a state transportation museum.
I attended both the assembly and senate voting for the transportation museum at the statehouse in Trenton. When both votes passed, I thought that our dream would finally come true. The governor signed the bill !
Little did we know that Trenton would stab us all in the back when we weren't looking. They (assembly appropreations committee) would stall the bill until it expired. No funding from Trenton would kill the Transportation Heritage Center.
Unless things change in Trenton, we can expect NO HELP from our politicians on a state level. The Transport Heritage Center has gotten help from Warren county. In order to use this money, the THC must locate in another part of Warren county. Also, the future THC will be a much smaller version of the vision that once was planned.
There are organizations that are sympathetic to starting a museum in New Jersey. The best way to help is to join.
1. The Friends of Transportation Heritage Center
2. United Railroad Historical Society (URHS)
Just go on their websites !

P.S. I really don't care where in New Jersey it may be placed, North Jersey (Jersey City), South Jersey (Cape May Seashore Lines), I just want a place where rail and transportation artifacts and information can be made available to people of OUR STATE! I don't want to go to other states to view OUR TRANSPORTATION HISTORY!
JON WIZ

Listfolk,

hehehe, computers are fun... NOT... actually, not bad, running a 99 pavillion 4535 that I am gassin' up... Too bad I cannot straight axle her front end though... :-(

Anyway, onto the more pressing issue of this...

some thoughts, (I actually had this on my mind alot recently since my last post, but between bringing this old dinosaur back to life, and work (police towing has been BUSY...) I haven't had the time untill now...

1.) Corzine is in... Admittedly, I am no fan of his, but it is as Mel Gibson once said "You take the biggest lemon of the bunch, and then squeeze him for all he's worth.."...

2.) Hire Donald Trump for an hour to go to LSP, and FIRE all the useless taxpayer dollar sucking leaches over there.

3.) Raise all kinds of hell weekly with the politicos in Trenton so much so to the point (including those appropriations jerks) that they have nightmares of CNJ camelbacks and Lackawanna Poconos whenever they close their eyes...

4.) THEN... when the logjam is finally dynamited, get ahold of the crew at the Pine Creek Railroad to run the operation (as they are the only group who have actually made any kind of headway in this arena in the state..)

Sorry to all the fans of the URHS, NRHS, etc and their elected leaders, but honesty, the New Jersey Transportation Museum (I think its called that, aka Pine Creek Railroad) is best of breed in New Jersey, so run the ball with the best of what we have...

I know some really big headed egos will be hurt over this, but hey, its not about who has the most inflated head, its about getting the job done... Either you get on board, or the train leaves the shed without you on it...

and remember, send all hate mail to me, JDouglasFisher at Earthlink...

Joe...

PS... Steve P... Is that you I hear on WMTR (I think its the station ID) in the afternoons reporting? (Our shop mechanic, young kid, got us all hooked on the old skool stuff recently..)

Pine Creek RR is nice, but do we really wanna stuff all those locos and coaches and buses and trolleys into some bucolic woodland setting? The NJTHC should be in an appropriate transit-related (more specifically, train-related) setting.

P-burg was OK for that, but as I and others have said, LSP is not only more appropriate but ideal on many levels.

My previously-mentioned second choice: the now-closed GM plant site in Linden. P-Burg has 50 acres, Linden has a nice 35, including more than a million square feet of high-ceilinged indoor space. The site has existing rail access, and I believe some of that track enters the building itself. There's nearby office space (United Auto Workers bldg., which I'm sure will be available too), a highway right alongside, and it's next to the NEC. Not only that, but two additional aspects of transportation could be added to the mix--air (Linden Airport being across the street), and automobiles (a tribute to the now dead automotive industry in NJ).

Maybe GM would donate the site for a tax write-off?

Yeah, I know there could be low-income townhouses, or another strip-mall, instead, but those would require costly demolition, waste removal, and certainly a higher degree of environmental clean-up than is probably required prior for storing locos and buses, even for public viewing.

The only drawback for Linden is that there would not likely be any excursions--although it's not that much more likely there would be excursions from LSP. Maybe that would be part of the Newton satellite?

Guys, I'm planning to send the following letter to the Star-Ledger. Input?

Dear Editor,

I recently read with dismay that the Phillipsburg Council has removed the New Jersey State Transportation and Heritage Center from its Urban Enterprise Zone plans, a result of the Friends of the NJSTHC’s reaction following the Council’s reduction in the amount of land they were to make available for the museum.

What some have described as a setback, I call an opportunity to reexamine a more appropriate site that was dismissed early on in the planning process for the Center, as well as a chance to add a new possibility to the debate. Phillipsburg was a so-so site for the Center, but the long-dismissed Liberty State Park, with its grand Central Railroad of New Jersey terminal, is not only more appropriate but ideal on many levels. It is already a site of tourism activity, and is near others, including the Liberty Science Center.

My second choice: the now-closed General Motors plant site in Linden. The now-dismissed Phillipsburg site offered 50 acres; Linden has a nice 35, including more than a million square feet of high-ceilinged indoor space. The site has existing rail access, and I believe some of that track enters the building itself. There's nearby office space (United Auto Workers building., which I'm sure will be available too), a highway right alongside, and it's next to the rails of the Northeast Corridor. Not only that, but two additional aspects of transportation could be added to the mix--air (Linden Airport being across the street), and automobiles (a tribute to the now dead automotive industry in NJ).

Yeah, I know there could be low-income townhouses, or another strip-mall, instead, but those would require costly demolition, waste removal, and certainly a higher degree of environmental clean-up than is probably required prior for storing locos and buses, even for public viewing.

Maybe GM would donate the site as a tax write-off? As to government funding for the rest of the venture, well, we know that’s gonna take a lot more time and effort to secure, considering the trouble Trenton is having securing funding for current and future transportation projects. Still, that means the project is no worse off than it would be at any other site.

The only drawback for both the Linden and Liberty State Park sites is that there is little if any area to offer rail excursions as were planned for Phillipsburg.

-Alan Binenstock
Union, NJ

Hello all,

Hello Mr. Binenstock,

I was reading this post and after reading Mr. Binenstock's proposed leter to the editor, decided I'd post my two cents worth.

I couldn't agree more that the only place to have a true New Jersey Transportation Museum would be at Liberty State Park.

To Alan, I might suggest you add to your letter a reminder to the readers of the letter about the two other attractions Im surprised you left out: The Statue of Liberty and Ellis Island. If you can find some visitor totals for all three attractions, plus other Park events, would make a far more powerful presentation.

You might want to also point out the the Phillipsburg site died because the state would not spend money to buy the necessary land. However, with nearly 800 acres, plus a restored Train Terminal, Liberty State Park would cost the state a grand whopping total of $0.00 to acquire the land.

And don't be afraid to give a politician an idea he or she could run with. Many people get hung up on the its my idea. We need to make Governor Corzine believe this idea is his idea and that it is far less expensive that the previous proposal. It also won't hurt to point out that the museum would be in Hudson county. Remember, this is NJ, always keep in mind the needs of the "Democratic" political machine. Phillipsburg was in "Republican" districts of Warren county.

Just imagine the spin. The headline reads:

Governor Corzine puts historic trains back on track
Finds free land for state transportation museum

Remind people the site is available now, has visitors to it already, is partially used as a tourist attraction, and could be developed in no time at all.

I think getting the ball rolling again is important. Sometimes a simple letter to the editor might be the spark that starts the engine. It doesn't hurt to let others know about the problems the Transportation Hertitage Center is going through.

Otto Vondrak wrote:The museum belongs in the train shed at Liberty State Park, in the CNJ terminal. Period.

But... it appears the decision is out of our hands, anyway.

-otto-

That's prob. the best idea I've heard yet. That building could use a overhaul, and a railroad museum would be the best thing that could happen to that place.