Penn Station Emergency Repairs: Trackwork, etc.

Amtrak might find it cheaper to have an electric loco pull the Diesel engine and the Empire Service train out of Tracks 1 - 4, instead of reinstalling 3rd rail. There is catenary in the Empire Connection tunnel.

While we are qualified on the PCs of "A" interlocking most of us have never been on tracks one through four. Plus as Ive stated before you would need permission to fire up the diesel to get there. If we were towed in you gotta turn the equipment. There is going to be enough stuff going on with out the extra moves. Push pull would be a moot point

Mr. Junkie, I'm not certain whether this predates your entering service, but internal combustion equipment has operated through Penn in the past. Coming to mind is the PRR Keystone set that I think some tourist pike still operates. Also, the Power Cars that were part of GG-1 hauled Amfleet consists. And finally, the Circus Trains as well as the "rescue me" diesel units I understand are assigned at Penn.

If the term "emergency" must be applicable, I'd certainly consider Penn losing some third of its capacity to be just that. Lest we forget, we are.not talking about some half occupied station such as New Orleans.

back to my question of a few pages ago
how long would it take for a total closure of NYP and rehab? (a la L tunnels)

or as an alternate could they close one north river tunnel and one set of east river tunnels and half the tracks at a time and fully rehab those?
of course in the end the two halves of work would have to be connected hopefully in several places

as has been stated on the MN forum GCT has multiple access routes to all the tracks
one hopes that if they rehab NYP the same would be true so that if one switch fails there would be an "alternate" route to whatever track

JamesRR wrote:Interesting idea (NJT has run on Metro-North before, via Penn and the Hellgate line). But is the suggestion that people from NJ would deboard at Woodside/Jamaica and reverse back to the city somehow? I don't think that would be acceptable from commuters as an alternative. Also, moving through Penn Station is still a slow process, and you're adding another river traverse to the ride.

If your suggestion is to deboard at Penn as though it's any other station (like secaucus junction) and have the train continue on, then it isn't much different than the routine now. Many trains deboard and continue on to Queens for layup.

To your first point, not my thinking at all; my intent is for the train, as you later note, to continue on. But NOT as a yard deadhead, but as an LIRR train. That may mean some passengers would not disembark at Penn, but by no means do I mean for NYP bound pax to have to double-back; that would be pointless.

Excon90's post mentions that there are no interlockings until west of Jamaica, but also brings up branch lines; I could definitely see that being a possibility. The ALP-45DP should have the range for some of the closer-in branches such as Port Washington (although the single track on the PW might complicate running reverse peak) after losing catenary where the catenary diverges. Or, just run out to Jamaica, grab transfer passengers, and run back to NYP and out to NJ.

what about continuous SEC or NWK to JAM shuttles both ways. with stop at NYP of course.
what frequency could those run at?
would free a lot of tracks for rehab
inconvenient that LI pax would start at woodside (PW) or JAM
and NJ pax at HOB or NWK and AMTK at NWK

Hell , I haven't see any reference to the Coast Starlight being canceled between WA-CA since April 25th because of a derailment that damaged a bridge on this forum. The early estimate for restoration is the middle of May. That's almost a month without service, and no one bats an eye. There are plenty of options for Penn and they are being explored.

Point well made. Perhaps it's because the Starlight has perhaps 200 passengers per trip and they're all leisure travelers, while NYP has something like 200,000 passengers per day, mostly for business or work (gotta pay the bills!).

I think overall everybody involved is going to make some serious sacrifices now - commuters, LD passengers, all railroads and gov't entities - nobody is going to come out of this unscathed. And there's no alternate. You either engage in a massive rebuild or the place is going to continue to melt down in front of our eyes, just like the railroad warned it would for the last 20 years. And then someone is going to get hurt. Can you imagine the news if there is a serious derailment or crash underground with two commuter trains, 1000 passengers each?

Bottom line, nobody is going to see things go well here.

^WINNER WINNER CHICKEN DINNER^

and the Coast Starlight oversight has been rectified :D http://railroad.net/forums/viewtopic.ph ... 2#p1430622" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Gilbert B Norman wrote:Mr. Junkie, I'm not certain whether this predates your entering service, but internal combustion equipment has operated through Penn in the past. Coming to mind is the PRR Keystone set that I think some tourist pike still operates. Also, the Power Cars that were part of GG-1 hauled Amfleet consists. And finally, the Circus Trains as well as the "rescue me" diesel units I understand are assigned at Penn.

If the term "emergency" must be applicable, I'd certainly consider Penn losing some third of its capacity to be just that. Lest we forget, we are.not talking about some half occupied station such as New Orleans.

Not saying it hasnt or dosent, Ive done it myself however you do need the permission of PSCC to fire up the diesel. Once you get onto third rail you gotta shut down the diesel and fire up the electric. If we were routed to tracks 1-4 no third rail then you have two choices leave it up and running or shut it down completely. Even with the exhaust fans working the lower concourse will fill up with smoke. Equipment can sit down stairs for quite a while no need to smoke the joint out.

flexliner wrote:back to my question of a few pages ago
how long would it take for a total closure of NYP and rehab? (a la L tunnels)

or as an alternate could they close one north river tunnel and one set of east river tunnels and half the tracks at a time and fully rehab those?
of course in the end the two halves of work would have to be connected hopefully in several places

as has been stated on the MN forum GCT has multiple access routes to all the tracks
one hopes that if they rehab NYP the same would be true so that if one switch fails there would be an "alternate" route to whatever track

Shutting down Penn is quite simply not an option. You're talking about a station that handles ~350,000 passengers a day, more than the average daily ridership of SEPTA, Caltrain, Los Angeles Metrolink and the MBTA combined.

Hence the fire drill. If Penn were knocked offline for any significant amount of time it would be enough to impact the national economy.

flexliner wrote:what about continuous SEC or NWK to JAM shuttles both ways. with stop at NYP of course.
what frequency could those run at?
would free a lot of tracks for rehab
inconvenient that LI pax would start at woodside (PW) or JAM
and NJ pax at HOB or NWK and AMTK at NWK

That was a thought I had - NJT runs shuttles between Secaucus and NYP (But not on to Jamaica).
Passengers transfer at SEC to NYP shuttles that run back and forth through one tunnel. Not sure if the interlocking will permit this.

Same for LIRR - shuttles from JAM to NYP with Jamaica being the transfer point.

You're missing the point; make it a through shuttle, using NJT equipment. Through running.

These shuttles are just a bad idea and won't happen. There is absolutely no way to get a full 10 MLV train coming from Trenton or Dover to disembark and transfer onto a shuttle at Secaucus. It is slow, inefficient use of scarce Secaucus tracks, the passengers won't like it and someone is going to get hurt in the stampedes up and down the escalators and the stairs. Doing it at Newark Penn or Newark Broad is no better.

There is no space at Jamaica for turning as the LIRR will need all the capacity they can get there. There is not enough equipment (ALP45s) to even consider running to Jamaica and NJT equipment has never made it past Harold. Who is to guarantee that the clearances are there for the ALPs and the MLVs? They probably are, but they have never been checked and checking them is a painful long process whose undertaking is not justified.

I do not understand the operations of LIRR enough to even venture a guess what they could do, but for NJT it is pretty clear that they need to bite the bullet and choose who to inconvenience. My best run at it is:

1. Close Secaucus for the duration of the repairs. Anyone using Bergen/Main/Port Jervis/Pascack Valley lines goes to Hoboken. That way the lines that continue to run into Penn don't need space for the Secaucus transfers onboard. Inbound delays are avoided because there is no people trying to cram into an already full train coming from Trenton, Long Branch or Dover. Outbound the complex dance of trains not stopping at Secaucus passing trains stopped at Secaucus is avoided, so delays are again reduced.
2. Cut the number of NEC, Coastline and Dover trains. Make all of them local. Run with the maximum number of cars possible, not the maximum number used in the past. For the MLVs if needed double the engines. For the EMUs just go as long as possible. Insiders need to fill me in on the numbers, could you run 14-15 EMUs? How about 12-14 MLVs with two engines? If you still need to cut trains, the Coastline will be it as it has the lowest ridership.
3. All Montclair and Gladstone trains also go to Hoboken. Passengers get to choose whether to go to Hoboken or switch at Newark Broad or Summit to/from the Dover trains.
4. Raritan Valley is of course cut to Newark Penn even off-peak.

It is going to suck for the riding public, but it will suck no matter what you do. So simplify operations, so that you can run them on a tighter schedule allowing for a few more trains in and out as opposed to keep every line's access to Penn and guarantee delays, missed connections and general chaos.

Just at a preliminary glance, that looks like the "least-worst" possibility--particularly considering the two-levels-up-then-one-level-down scenario at Secaucus. While eliminating expresses theoretically reduces capacity, the running of expresses on anything less than 4 tracks requires a precision of train sequences not likely to be possible under those circumstances. Conceivably NJT could work something out for the NEC, but hard to do anywhere else.