Paving Over Rt 23

the sarge wrote:

tdoran1951 wrote:The LRV’s sold today in the United States at the present may soon “disappear”, as there is a movement within factions of the NTSB and the Federal Transit Administration (FTA) that want to implement similar standards to the Railroad Passenger Safety Act of 2008 for light rail, and metro (i.e. subway et al.) especially in terms of “crushability”, “fire”, “rollover”, and “command and control (i.e. PTC/ATC)” given the deaths in the Washington METRO crash and others, and the increasing number of “bumping incidents” with light rail.

It's statements like this that spreads misinformation. Yes, the above may have spread through DC and made it to a few college classroom discussions; especially in regards to rapid transit lines like subways. But, I wouldn't classify some knee-jerk comments from a few years ago with an actual "Movement" within the NTSB and FTA. Also, if such a thing would be pushed, it would not apply to any of the trolley routes within the City of Philadelphia.

The FTA does have such a committee and such is part of an ongoing safety review. And since almost whatever SEPTA does with light rail in the future, they will have to abide with the FTA regulations since it most likely be considered a “new start”, unless they totally forego any federal monies which is highly unlikely.

tdoran1951 wrote:I do not have to answer your questions. Moreover, so far what you have stated has just been your opinion

No, you do not have to answer my questions, it's your prerogative - but it does say a lot about you. I stated that the cross braces in the recent Philly rebuild projects do not contribute to the structural support of the tracks once the concrete is poured and cured. That is not an opinion, it is fact. Vibration and dampening was used in the recent rebuilds - the same the TTC used, fact. These statements would only appear to be opinions to someone who has no clue in what they are talking about or you're just being a troll - either way, I'm done.

Why would they even install those new tracks? Is it the same reason that they installed new tracks on the Newtown line a year after the "temporary suspension"

jackintosh11 wrote:Why would they even install those new tracks? Is it the same reason that they installed new tracks on the Newtown line a year after the "temporary suspension"

It seems to be SOP for any government operation, one case Navy completes a 100 million dollar overhaul, then six months after that turns the ship over to a museum.

tdoran1951 wrote:

jackintosh11 wrote:Why would they even install those new tracks? Is it the same reason that they installed new tracks on the Newtown line a year after the "temporary suspension"

It seems to be SOP for any government operation, one case Navy completes a 100 million dollar overhaul, then six months after that turns the ship over to a museum.

it has to do with the "temporary bus substitution" . since it is technically still an active streetcar line the tracks had to be replaced. they were ripped out in the first place for a water department project i believe,

trackwelder wrote:

tdoran1951 wrote:

jackintosh11 wrote:Why would they even install those new tracks? Is it the same reason that they installed new tracks on the Newtown line a year after the "temporary suspension"

It seems to be SOP for any government operation, one case Navy completes a 100 million dollar overhaul, then six months after that turns the ship over to a museum.

it has to do with the "temporary bus substitution" . since it is technically still an active streetcar line the tracks had to be replaced. they were ripped out in the first place for a water department project i believe,

However, after 5-yeras or more of being "temporarily abandoned", the fed's (FTA) do not consider "temporary", but any federal monies for any such route, would be considered a "new start"; Boston's Arborway is just one example. And with that, no matter what was, the federal rules and requirement then come in to play for a current "new start" that can be quite extensive, and the justification for monies also is much greater and subject to more testing if a valid plan.

tdoran1951 wrote: SEPTA has never believed in catenary or “pan” (pantograph) operation, supposedly the entire 1981 Kawasaki order was ordered with “pans” (pantographs) to be field installed locally later on, that have either been deposed of, or sitting in a lot near Elmwood, as SEPTA had plans to upgrade to catenary and “pan” (pantograph) operation with the follow-on order of Kawasaki for the North routes (neither happened, and neither was really planned or intended by SEPTA).

Also, the track gauge and track geometry between “city” and “suburban” needs to be unified, and again should have been done in the 1980’s with a physical track (powered) interconnection to a common maintenance facility.

Around the time of K car order, the FBI investigated SEPTA's two suburban trolley lines. The reason for this investigation was that somehow under SEPTA operation, the line was being operated by trolleys with pantographs. Agents Mulder and Scully tried to link this conversion to alien intervention as the thought of SEPTA doing this was quite preposterous and who else would have done such a thing? Had to be aliens. The two agents even looked into the mystery of the 112 pantographs supposedly ordered for the city lines. It appeared that the aliens got spooked and warped out of the galaxy before they could even start converting the city lines. In their haste, the 112 pantographs were left by the aliens in a back lot stacked a mile high? Since SEPTA never believed in pantographs, they vehemently refused to finish the job and donated the pantographs to the city for use as playground equipment. The donated pantographs were known as southwest philly see-saws. True story....

Also, another mystery at that time was why didn't the the city and suburban line get connected as one system - considering they share the same track gauge and in a sense good enough for govt work, geometry. Turns out that it was not a mystery. It was that no transportation planner worth at least 2 cents could come up with anything beneficial resulting of such a project. Considering SEPTA's track record with running or even keeping what they had at the time, why spend money for more redundancy?

tdoran1951 wrote: Yes in the 1990’s there was some support from the University community, and from the Chestnut Hill businesses to support revived rail based electric street transportation, sadly that interest and support is now all gone. Chestnut Hill businesses are now more concerned with parking and traffic, with local residents worried about bicycles and baby carriages wheels being stuck or wedged in the track infrastructure.

tdoran1951 wrote:It seems to be SOP for any government operation, one case Navy completes a 100 million dollar overhaul, then six months after that turns the ship over to a museum.

A long time ago, in a place not actually that far away, a local community voiced their support for trolleys. The evil empire at 1234 could not comprehend such action. How could someone, let alone a community, like these electric behemoths? 1234 was baffled as the people of Northwest Philly were not of the same caliber as the other trolley supporting species; "The Foamer" - those camera toting species that are always fouling the main in search of the perfect picture. After temporary bus service was instituted, 1234 did not want to yank the band-aid off in one tug, so they operated a historic service for a bit to ease the pain before cutting all electric rail service.

An old saying "Time heals all wounds" gets thrown around a lot, and 1234 was no exception of trying to cash in on the saying. They were hoping that as time went by, interest in trolleys would wane. Legend has it that 1234 was so dead set in not ever having a trolley ever run on Germantown Ave, that as a hedge for the "Time Heals" plan, upper management sent family members up to Chestnut Hill armed with baby buggies to purposely get hung up on a rail while crossing the street. They were also instructed to shout "Somebody help me free my baby coach before an evil trolley shows up!" once stuck in the rail. In fact, I heard it was observed one of the buggies did not have a baby, but a sand bag in its place. On top, of the "Time Heals" and "Stuck Baby" plans, a secret memo was passed around 1234 that all employees in the building would have to park their cars on the street in Chestnut Hill and take Regional Rail to CC in hopes that parking would be impossible around the community. As a cherry on top, two very high up 1234'ers actually rode their bikes around Chestnut Hill and purposely crashed them on the rails. It has been rumored for years that Luther Diggs mental issues stemmed from these repeated crashes - a lot of head trauma. With time growing, babies trapped in the middle of a busy avenue, no parking, and Digg's Flying Bike Circus, 1234 was convinced that by the year 2000, nobody in Northwest Philly would care and there would be NO support for trolleys.

Fast forward to 2006. Significant sections of Germantown Ave needed to be completely rebuilt. PennDOT asked SEPTA, "Do you really need these tracks put back?" "Because, the job would be so much easier, cheaper, and won't be such a nuisance to the community during construction if we just leave them out." "Everyone and their mother knows you have no intention of ever running a trolley down Germantown Ave." When SEPTA heard this, heavenly music played and light filled the room. SEPTA shouted "Yes, YES, YYYEEEESSSSS!!! We finally have an excuse to rip up a significant portion of the lines and can blame PennDOT at same time ! Sweet!" Right before the project went into design, it appeared the tracks were not going to be put back, sniff, sniff.

Alas! Right when SEPTA thought they could rid the tracks, those trolley hippies from Northwest Philly raised some serious heck! Diggs, still icing his head from all the concussions went through the roof. To make matters worse, the assumed 'No support at all" trolley hippies had some good connections with the city and convinced them not to green light the project unless the tracks get put back. Another legend has it that Jim Seppala, who wants to 'See ya in a KIA" stole the catchphrase "That's Craaaaaaazzzzay!" from SEPTA's response to having to put back the tracks. Only if the local government was more tyrannical and less for peoples interest, the money would not have been wasted on those ornamental tracks. True Story...

Wasn't that in April of that year?

On the first day of the month?

Quinn wrote:

tdoran1951 wrote:Also, the track gauge and track geometry between “city” and “suburban” needs to be unified, and again should have been done in the 1980’s with a physical track (powered) interconnection to a common maintenance facility.

Are you talking about joining the 101/102 system to the city? I don't think that's feasible. The closest they come, I believe, is the Sharon Hill terminus and the Darby Loop, and they are just over a mile apart.

Personally, I considered extending them from 69th street to become an extension to route 10!

There used to be a direct physical connection of 69Th St to the city system via Market St. until the 1920's for local trolley freight, but that is long gone as is miles of tracks anywhere near 69Th via Market St. Gone forever.

If you're talking alternatives, Route 10's current terminus is established and logically located (unless you're talking about an extension to the city line/Overbrook). Route 15 would make more sense. As shown below, Route 31 as a trolley formerly extended from the current Route 15 track west along Haverford and Girard Aves, combining onto Haverford at 65Th, turning north onto 67Th, then west onto Lansdowne Avenue to a loop just shy of Lansdowne at Haverford avenues. This loop still exists as parking for a nearby park. From reactivation to here, you would only need less than a mile of track down Cardington Rd./Victory Avenue (Shown below as "Mill Rd.") to 103 Victory Avenue (69th St. Shops), where a MOW track coming from the 101/102 69th St yard track comes across and along the driveway that leads to the North bus terminal and ends maybe 100 yards short of Victory Ave.



Not a small expense, and the golf courses on both sides of Cardington St. would likely take umbrage. One would have to make a cost/benefit analysis to see how much you save in moving 101/102 cars too Woodland via rail vs as currently done by truck. I would strongly suspect its not worth it.

More cost efficient would be to restore crossovers which used to exist somewhere between 22nd and 30th (exactly where escapes me; they are shown in John Pawson's 1979 book) that would allow trolleys to enter MFL trackage and be towed via the el to 69th Street. Again still; likely not worth the cost.

tdoran1951 wrote: The Bombardier Transportation Flexity Freedom could work in Philadelphia for street running, except for the deliberate “poison pill” action by SEPTA in the modification of the subway beneath 1234 Market to prohibit any possibility of ever running modern Light Rail Vehicles (LRV), which would cost millions to correct and may be highly disruptive to both the SS lines and the MFL service.

SEPTA has never believed in catenary or “pan” (pantograph) operation, supposedly the entire 1981 Kawasaki order was ordered with “pans” (pantographs) to be field installed locally later on, that have either been deposed of, or sitting in a lot near Elmwood, as SEPTA had plans to upgrade to catenary and “pan” (pantograph) operation with the follow-on order of Kawasaki for the North routes (neither happened, and neither was really planned or intended by SEPTA).

Also, the track gauge and track geometry between “city” and “suburban” needs to be unified, and again should have been done in the 1980’s with a physical track (powered) interconnection to a common maintenance facility.

They might actually go with a Flexity, I'm sure they have viewed Toronto's favorably. After all, SEPTA's cars are similar to the CLRV's in that they are a one-off design that's just going to be costlier to maintain. I question that "poison pill" you mentioned, it's not likely that there would be anything that future cars wouldn't be able to handle if the current cars can! And almost a given that SEPTA's rail network will never expand? Absolutely. But never ordering a modern light rail vehicle? I would dispute that. And they may never be fully ADA compliant, but they're getting closer!

As Woodland's transfer tables are limited to 67 feet and the enormous expense of completely replacing that facility (which would likely be necessary), I would be surprised if they didn't go with one of those designs with a minimum design length of 66ft which includes Kinkisharyo Ameritram or United Streetcar USC 100. Brookville Liberty Car is out as it is center loading only and I don't see SEPTA going to POP vs. pay as you board. Designs which use a non-rigid axle bridge truck would also be out due to imminent derailment issues with single-point switches, which also precludes many over 66ft. designs (I guess not the Flexity at least though, as I believe Toronto is also mostly single-point).

tdoran1951 wrote:The Bombardier Transportation Flexity Freedom could work in Philadelphia for street running, except for the deliberate “poison pill” action by SEPTA in the modification of the subway beneath 1234 Market to prohibit any possibility of ever running modern Light Rail Vehicles (LRV), which would cost millions to correct and may be highly disruptive to both the SS lines and the MFL service.

SEPTA has never believed in catenary or “pan” (pantograph) operation, supposedly the entire 1981 Kawasaki order was ordered with “pans” (pantographs) to be field installed locally later on, that have either been deposed of, or sitting in a lot near Elmwood, as SEPTA had plans to upgrade to catenary and “pan” (pantograph) operation with the follow-on order of Kawasaki for the North routes (neither happened, and neither was really planned or intended by SEPTA)

I'm curious as to what you refer when you say "poison pill". The non-completion of conversion to pantograph collection? Hardly a block against operation of modern LRVs; if I recall correctly, the TTC Flexitys are fitted and operated with trolley poles with pans to come later.

If it is possibly some sort of track modification, SEPTA has not changed the track geometries within the tunnel in any appreciable way since it has been tasked with its operation, save for removal of a short spur at Juniper. In fact, track weight and fixation was substantially upgraded in the early 80s, even if the core design and geometry remained the same. There's little you can do to improve that without shaving corners off the loop, not a small expense.