Parking Garage at Noble

25Hz wrote:"big, cut back subway" agenda, RRD will never have its real needs met.

What are you talking about? What page of the proposed budget has the details?

Push/Pull Master wrote:My big problem with a Noble garage is that I'm not sure it will keep people from going to Jenkintown.

I disagree because I've never been able to find a parking spot between 10am and 3pm in Jenkintown's lot.  I always end up backtracking to Noble and parking there.  I just have to be extra vigilant to get back to a Center City station in time to catch a West Trenton train or I'll be standing around for upto an hour.  The flexibility of Jenkintown is more trains (hence less of a wait) however there is NOT enough parking.

N.E.Pennsy wrote:

Push/Pull Master wrote:My big problem with a Noble garage is that I'm not sure it will keep people from going to Jenkintown.

I disagree because I've never been able to find a parking spot between 10am and 3pm in Jenkintown's lot.  I always end up backtracking to Noble and parking there.  I just have to be extra vigilant to get back to CCP in time to catch a West Trento train or I'll be standing around for upto an hour.  The flexibility of Jenkintown is more trains (hence less of a wait) however there is NOT enough parking.

why do you have to get to the community college of Philadelphia to get to west trenton? parking could be free up by charging more at jenkintown so there would be parking throughout the day. this should be pretty easy to do either through private mgmt of the lot or the new parking payment system. parking rates, then, could vary based on demand.

fwiw the garage project also includes a pocket track, presumably for short turning trains at noble

N.E.Pennsy wrote:Simply put, SEPTA has support for it. Abington Township (which Noble station is in) and the local businesses STRONGLY support a garage at Noble which their neighbor (Jenkintown Borough) clearly doesn’t want at the Jenkintown Station.

Since when does Jenkintown Borough have any say over what happens at the train station, especially since the lot would be built in Cheltenham Township? They are becoming more insular and business abject every day, just look at all the empty storefronts on York Road (even the Dunkin Donuts closed up and HiFi House is leaving too). I know that the roads to Jenkintown Station are atrocious, even after the Greenwood Avenue bridge is completed, but the frequency of trains through Jenkintown cannot be beat by any of the other feeder lines.

Why do I suddenly feel like I have deja vu? I think this horse was already beaten to death years ago.

Concentrating service in and near the city, and outside that, extremely sparse or no service is what i was referring to.

The reality is that SEPTA does not exist to serve philadelphia, it exists to serve the people in and around the southeastern region of pennsylvania. Most improvements have been, and are focused on, trains and routes that end as close to the city lines as possible. A parking garage at noble, how about one at langhorne, where the lot is full most weekdays, and there is huge massive traffic volume issues getting from the surrounding areas into philly, or out into NJ and several other pattern routes? The garage & yard track(s) would help service end at jenkintown, not help anyone past jenkintown, or off towards warminster, or landsdale or doylestown, or newtown. Basically, it does not address the problems of the reading side, just makes it easier to terminate runs at jenkintown, which is fairly useless, as jenkintown is not a big big destination/origin in & of itself aside from transfers.

Whomever is drawing up these priority lists needs to see a team of proctologists to get their head out of their you know where, because its REALLY jammed in there. There is no rhyme or reason to RRD's operations, you say "oh look at these low rider numbers, lets have even fewer stops there!!" While the reason for low numbers is the poor service to begin with, or poor station condition, or odd ticket office hours, and especially in connecting to other modes, and transferring to other trains. NO effort is made to connect SEPTA with itself, then you go ride NJT and every person on that train knows where the other trains are supposed to be on that line, accurate estimates of wait times, etc. Its an embarrassment....

We can and need to do better, and if putting a huge parking garage at tiny noble without even a mini-high platform is representative of what management thinks is a GOOD idea, then they need to be handed their hats.

25Hz wrote:Concentrating service in and near the city, and outside that, extremely sparse or no service is what i was referring to.

Philadelphia population: 1,526,006
Philadelphia land area: 134.1 sq mi

Bucks County population: 625,249
Bucks County land area: 607 sq mi

As long as these numbers are at all accurate, it will always be the case that it will be easier and cheaper to provide high-quality transit service in Philadelphia than in Bucks County. If SEPTA were in the business of giving everyone the barest legal minimum of service, then service in Bucks and the city might be equal, but fortunately for everyone, SEPTA has higher goals than that. As long as SEPTA has limited, finite funding, and as long as it is a reasonably competent steward of that money, service is going to be better in Philadelphia than in the suburbs. When it comes to exactly how bad suburban service is, well, I lived in the suburbs longer than I've lived in the city, and I feel your pain. But eventually, I did move to the city, and I've been quite happy here. I have to wonder why, if you've noticed the imbalance and it upsets you that much, haven't you considered joining us here, where the service is better? This entire city (with minor exceptions on the fringes) was architected for people to live here without a car. For all its other advantages, Bucks County cannot say the same thing.

25Hz wrote:Concentrating service in and near the city, and outside that, extremely sparse or no service is what i was referring to.

The reality is that SEPTA does not exist to serve philadelphia, it exists to serve the people in and around the southeastern region of pennsylvania. Most improvements have been, and are focused on, trains and routes that end as close to the city lines as possible. A parking garage at noble, how about one at langhorne, where the lot is full most weekdays, and there is huge massive traffic volume issues getting from the surrounding areas into philly, or out into NJ and several other pattern routes? The garage & yard track(s) would help service end at jenkintown, not help anyone past jenkintown, or off towards warminster, or landsdale or doylestown, or newtown. Basically, it does not address the problems of the reading side, just makes it easier to terminate runs at jenkintown, which is fairly useless, as jenkintown is not a big big destination/origin in & of itself aside from transfers.

Whomever is drawing up these priority lists needs to see a team of proctologists to get their head out of their you know where, because its REALLY jammed in there. There is no rhyme or reason to RRD's operations, you say "oh look at these low rider numbers, lets have even fewer stops there!!" While the reason for low numbers is the poor service to begin with, or poor station condition, or odd ticket office hours, and especially in connecting to other modes, and transferring to other trains. NO effort is made to connect SEPTA with itself, then you go ride NJT and every person on that train knows where the other trains are supposed to be on that line, accurate estimates of wait times, etc. Its an embarrassment....

We can and need to do better, and if putting a huge parking garage at tiny noble without even a mini-high platform is representative of what management thinks is a GOOD idea, then they need to be handed their hats.

The reason NJT has efficient transfers is because almost everyone is heading to NYP and lines like Main/Bergen don't go to NYP for previously discussed reasons. Every Septa line goes to CC so transfers aren't very frequent. By the way, Noble garage would include a fancy high level platform with another unneeded station house. However, there could be better transfers at Trenton.

So, the solution, is to move where i would be unable to really leave & do things due to inadequate service, vs transit provide adequate service. Gee, by that logic, we should just all abandon the outer counties and move to the city....! (eyeroll)

Considering the 4 fold increase in population since the rail line was shuttered and 28 times since the interurban was shuttered, some sort of increase in services to the areas between doylestown and lower bucks is in order. To put in perspective philadelphia's population in that same time has stagnated, and gone down respectively.

There are a total of 4 active and one inactive passenger rail line that pass through/into bucks county originating philadelphia, yet none of them have been utilized to address this population increase. I'm sorry, but a pretty new station building does not do anything for congestion relief, neither does a parking garage at noble (again, not ADA compliant & tiny canopy/bus shelter & odd walk up and over), what we need is more trains more places, and parking garages farther out on the lines vs next to where they all come together.

If you're going to build a garage, at the very least, rebuild the station??????????

The noble station will be ADA compliant when finished ...

From the Capital Budget report, pg 45

Construction of station improvements, new parking garage and storage track.
Multi-story garage levels and new security cameras will also be added. Noble
Station will also receive a new station building with ADA improvements,
including high-level platforms with tactile edging; new passenger shelters;
accessible stairs, ramps, sidewalks and handrails/guardrails; new signage,
lighting, security cameras; stormwater management systems and
landscaping.

glennk419 wrote:Since when does Jenkintown Borough have any say over what happens at the train station, especially since the lot would be built in Cheltenham Township? They are becoming more insular and business abject every day, just look at all the empty storefronts on York Road (even the Dunkin Donuts closed up and HiFi House is leaving too). I know that the roads to Jenkintown Station are atrocious, even after the Greenwood Avenue bridge is completed, but the frequency of trains through Jenkintown cannot be beat by any of the other feeder lines.

their downtown seems to be doing better than in prior years butit's bigest problem is high speed through traffic on old york rd that needs to be slowed down, most notably by parking ON 611.that aside, jenkintown is an unfortunate junction. if it were in downtown jenkintown it would draw traffic to the center of town not only helping its downtown but also its residential neighborhoods. the reality is the railroad was built on the edge of town so people drive through the residential neighborhoods.

while I don't agree with the idea that service to/from the city is a problem, there is plenty of reason to dislike the noble garage project which is estimated at $53 million and adds very little value to the system.since abington wants the area developed they should apply for a grant to build a garage rather than pilfer septa's capital budget for their redevelopment project. there is a decided lack of investment in improvements in the budet let alone restoration to dense suburban locations like west chester. it affects the city as well because being connected to places like west chester and phoenixville strengthens the city, the region, and the rail network. rail lines need to go places not just parking lots.

Suburban Station wrote:

glennk419 wrote:Since when does Jenkintown Borough have any say over what happens at the train station, especially since the lot would be built in Cheltenham Township? They are becoming more insular and business abject every day, just look at all the empty storefronts on York Road (even the Dunkin Donuts closed up and HiFi House is leaving too). I know that the roads to Jenkintown Station are atrocious, even after the Greenwood Avenue bridge is completed, but the frequency of trains through Jenkintown cannot be beat by any of the other feeder lines.

their downtown seems to be doing better than in prior years butit's bigest problem is high speed through traffic on old york rd that needs to be slowed down, most notably by parking ON 611.that aside, jenkintown is an unfortunate junction. if it were in downtown jenkintown it would draw traffic to the center of town not only helping its downtown but also its residential neighborhoods. the reality is the railroad was built on the edge of town so people drive through the residential neighborhoods.

while I don't agree with the idea that service to/from the city is a problem, there is plenty of reason to dislike the noble garage project which is estimated at $53 million and adds very little value to the system.since abington wants the area developed they should apply for a grant to build a garage rather than pilfer septa's capital budget for their redevelopment project. there is a decided lack of investment in improvements in the budet let alone restoration to dense suburban locations like west chester. it affects the city as well because being connected to places like west chester and phoenixville strengthens the city, the region, and the rail network. rail lines need to go places not just parking lots.

Hitting many nails on the head there.

I'm passing towards Bethayers right now, and suddenly the train is half full. How does this proposal help the people PAST noble?? A garage here would make more sense, as it has the mini-high on both sides. If abbington wants this so bad , they should pay for it, and let SEPTA use it's funds elsewhere, even if it just means 2x mini high at noble.

If it were up to me, I'd put new station at jenkintown first.

I'm coming up on rydal now..... How bout high platform rebuild? I can see noble from here.... Just to make my point more clear bout shrinking service syndrome.

25Hz wrote:I'm passing towards Bethayers right now, and suddenly the train is half full.

That must have been quite a shock. Did they suddenly pop into existence, or was it a slow fade in?

Quinn wrote:

25Hz wrote:I'm passing towards Bethayers right now, and suddenly the train is half full.

That must have been quite a shock. Did they suddenly pop into existence, or was it a slow fade in?

Well, from neshaminy to Forrest hills I was checking email in 3rd row. I guess the nice weather is drawing people out, take this train often, never this full (but always populated). I think employer transit tax credit programs may be having an effect as well, as all of the lots were full today, including the spill-over lot at Bethayers up past the substation. Anyways, looked up and many filled seats on the 3 car train. I believe 2 were open when I got on & all 3 were open when I exited at jenkintown.

I talk to people all the time waiting for their train & all agree service is below what is needed on the reading side, especially doylestown, and west Trenton, as more and more people flock to transit/populations & traffic forces them to seek alternates to driving the whole way.

There's demand, where's the supply!? C'mon SEPTA, keep up!!

It's annoying that local governments use SEPTA's budget to build municipal projects. The city is famous for it. Garage definitely needs to be plopped on a train and sent up to Warminster...or further up. The demand is in Bucks County guys, get with the program!