Our Hobby and Where It Is Going

Is there any organization within our hobby that truly represents the model railroad community
in regard to the manufacturers? An organization that does, or would, speak for the average model
railroader (as a group)? I ask simply because, in my humble opinion, there does exist - and has for
some time - an attitude among the manufacturers that the "sky is the limit" when it comes to new
products......"this is what we are producing, this is the price, it will be limited run, and take it or
leave it". I truly believe that everyone involved, including those modelers who pay the prices now being
charged, are slowly bringing this hobby to its knees. Kids coming up through the ages are going to be
the future of this hobby. How are they going to pay the prices we are seeing now?

There are some really great products being produced, with detail and options we old-timers never imagined.
To those who want those products and are willing to pay the prices, fine, to each their own. However, I believe
the vast majority of the hobby is being left behind by the prevailing attitudes and thinking of the manufacturers.
I believe there is still a need, and a demand, for the old "shake the box" kits that most of us fondly remember and
enjoyed.....and better still, purchased. Thanks in advance.....

Ownership through purchase of second-hand equipment.

People have been saying this for 50 years..
Everything is always more expensive than it was last year..
but life goes on, and the hobby endures.
Scot

Bigt - No, no one that I am aware of appears today to speak for the traditional model railroader. However, I don't think that the industry's situation is a matter of collusion among the manufacturers to simply produce increasingly expensive models at their whim, as much as it is their recognition that in the past decade the hobby has developed a new faction who, generally lacking the skills and interests of their predecessors, have demonstrated a willingness to pay whatever price is asked to get what they want in RTR, ultra-detailed form. They are not modellers, per se, but mainly just buyers of model railroad equipment and represent essentially an outgrowth of the old Lionel hobby, rather than that of traditional HO scale model railroading. Now the manufacturers are no fools and since their objective in the hobby is to make the biggest profit they can, they have sided with these pseudo model railroaders, making them their primary customer base. Brass followed a similar path over the years, but that evolution stretched over many decades, not just a dozen or so years.

In spite of what some may attempt to claim, the prices of today's HO locomotives (at least those of quality) are indeed, on the average, more expensive than at any time in the last 50 years, with prices at the high-end escalating at an alarming rate the past couple of years. Likewise, any statement that this hobby has ALWAYS been expensive is another falsehood, as from the 60's through the 80's, when it was mainly about modelling, it instead became progressively cheaper! One needs only consult the ads in older issues of the hobby's two main publications to see this demonstrated.

While currently HO locomotives are still available in either straight DC, or DCC and increasingly w/sound (smoke is next), I anticipate the former will cease to be produced in the not very distant future, leaving available only the high-end DCC examples...where the greatest profit is to be made. I see no evidence, outside of perhaps Atlas and to a lesser degree Bachmann, of the manufacturers making any real effort to offer reasonably priced new models for entry-level hobbyists interested in practicing traditional model railroading.

One needs only to read the World's Greatest Hobby's manifesto to see that the manufacturers don't honestly see much of a future in this hobby, or have any intent to attempt generating one. What money there is to be made will be made now and that is their immediate goal.

CNJ999

Your comment, Scot, is true, but it begs the real question. The problem is the very nature of the hobby has changed, and has changed in a way that threatens its future.

Model railroading in the 1920's was a hobby for the affluent. Train sets themselves were expensive toys, and to have a hobby-level model railroad required a considerable outlay.

It wasn't until the Depression of the 1930's that model railroading became an everyman's hobby. The thing that made this formerly high-cost hobby affordable was its adaptability to a low-capital, high labor investment hobby. It appealed to those with much time and little money on their hands. If you do a little research on model railroading of that era, you will find emphasis is on scratchbuilding and home workshop type products. Models were built with only components beyond the capability of home manufacture purchased.

Very little was produced during WWII because of rationing of strategic materials. Model kits available after the war consisted of roughed-out wooden forms, and things like pressed tin car sides. Truck assemblies and couplers were usually purchased separately. I would imagine one set of trucks may have served beneath several cars.

Even through the 1950's it was the norm to have to assemble your own locomotives, both steam and Diesel. Even when all the parts were included, you still had to be equipped to solder, and drill and tap holes. You had better be able to paint, too.

This type of modeling took a back seat to ready to run equipment in the 1960's and 70's, and had pretty much disappeared by the 1980's.

In the past 30 years, loco kits have pretty much vanished. So have car kits. Even building kits are being replaced by built-ups. DC powered railroads, where circuits can be traced by eye, and troubleshooting locomotives generally involves mechanical rather than electrical problems, is being replaced by DCC. In other words, the do-it-yourself nature of model railroading has been replaced by a plug-n-play mindset. This not only drives up the cost of the hobby, it makes it very difficult to repair things that need fixing. Like your automobile, repair means instead pulling and replacing components.

This did not happen by accident. The manufacturers decided to concentrate on high-priced items that can generate a lot of profit per unit instead of producing lots of low profit per unit items that would be more affordable. Things like the Athearn Blue Box line of cars and locos are gone forever. Instead, you get "DCC equipped" or "DCC ready" locos (and even switches) regardless of if you want them, or want to pay for them, or not. If the manufacturers have their way, DCC model railroads will be the only ones you will be able to buy equipment for.

Obviously, the future of any hobby is in its young people. This trend not only makes it difficult for young people to get into the hobby, it makes the hobby unable to withstand another major economic depression. If the economy collapses again, it will take our hobby with it.

It would be great if there were an organization that really speaks to the interests of the hobbyists. I'm afraid you are wasting your time if you think there is. The model railroad press is busy promoting the products of its advertisers. Don't expect to find many low-buck projects in there. Notice that the model railroads they feature have all the latest bells and whistles advertised in those issues. They give you the impression that to have a "serious" model railroad you need a thousand dollar control system to control your several-hundred-dollar apiece locomotives.

The NMRA is not the answer you look for, either. This organization has become interlocked with the manufacturers' organization in the interest of providing standardization between competing product lines. It is broken down into Special Interest Groups for different types of modeling, but it is not about making the hobby accessible or affordable. When I started in the hobby, I was enthused about the NMRA. But when I found their national convention was to be held in London, England, it showed what an elitist organization it really was. Nothing I have seen of it in 40-odd years since has changed that perception.

There is nothing really wrong with having an elitist organization to promote an exclusive hobby. Examples of this abound, from classic car collectors to air racers. But these are not everyman's hobbies, and model railroading is, or at least once was.

Les

CNJ999 & Les..... you have hit the nail on the head....my feelings exactly. And yes, I feel the same way
about the NMRA. I guess we have seen the glory years of model railroading. Too bad, for everyone is going
to lose in the end. Thank you for your thoughts and comments.

Our hobby is heading in the direction of making kitbash, highly detailed models availabe in RTR condition.

Companies like Bachmann will likely take up the slack for producing the entry-level models. Look at most of their recent offerings. Although their "Spectrum" line demonstrates that they can certainly compete in terms of detail and quality, their primary focus is entry-level railroaders at this point. That's why they keep offering these sets.

Nobody likes to pay more for products but I can't get with the conspiracy theorists who suggest companies are raising prices for the hell of it or for no other reason than to make more money to put in their pocket. You have to remember that profits from previous products go into producing (wait for it....): NEW PRODUCTS! In general, isn't that a good thing? Just because it may not be the product you want doesn't mean new products aren't a good thing because the profits from that product may actually go toward the model you've been salivating for. I of all people could appreciate that being an Amtrak and modern passenger train modeler from day one and being told (by uninterested, non-stake holding, naysayers)all the time that "it doesn't sell" or "it will never be produced". New Amtrak product announcements are generally far and few between these days but whatever new product is announced, I still wish it well knowing that the product's success increases the likelyhood that myself and those like me will be "next in line" .

If you have a general, cordial discussion with any of the company reps, you'll understand that there's plenty that goes on behind the scenes that impact the final price tag (and I'm not talking about price gouging decisions). Manufacturers understand that model railroading is a luxury and it is not needed to survive. As such, they'll try to maximize their return on a product without making the price so high that few people can purchase them. So comparing model railroading to Gasoline or something else is comparing apples and oranges.

Also consider that manufactures would prefer to make larger runs as the cost/unit typically would go down. Holding the price steady would still yield increased profits without having to raise prices. The challenge is that it only becomes expensive for them when they sit on stockpiles of the product because all those folks who wanted to buy the product have purchased them and so the manufacturer now has to sit on inventory which it is taxed for. How would you like it if every year, you had to report your model railroad assets to Uncle Sam and were taxed on the value? Given the tone it sounds like the most vocal here would shed their model railroad collection entirely, especially if they didn't have a layout and the stuff just sat in boxes.

This is what I mean when I say that I can't help but think that the sentiment expressed is somewhat selfish. I love great deals as much of the next person and I hope that is something that doesn't disappear over time, but to expect a manufacturer to continue doing things the way they have been in the past, even after they, themselves realized that it would be on a path to self-destruction, is irrational and short-sighted.

Manufacturers end up loosing money by producing high volumes of product in order to reduce the cost per unit, but leaving them with excess inventory that they can't sell but pay taxes on. In order to get rid of the excess product, they heavily discount items; likely selling them at a loss at this point but slowing the bleeding as much as possible. Now we, the consumer benefit in the form of "great deals" and blowout prices via the clearance rack but in the end we ALL loose! Why? Because the manufacturer ends up (theoretically) in financial trouble and potentially goes out of business which means less product availability for ALL of us (I know the "I have all I ever need so I'm ok" folks will dispute this fact, lol; again; this proves my point about selfishness).

Despite having said all of that, I will agree with folks in certain areas of he market in which essentially the same product without any re-tooling (that we're aware of) has increased in price without much to show for it. There are cases where that exists and I find that unsettling. I will say that I encourage folks to look deeper into what may be causing these "unwarranted" increases. Perhaps the latest run has a much lower production number? Perhaps the manufacturer overseas is demanding more money per unit? The list could go on, but I hate to see something started from a SIMPLE misconception like "The manufacturers are trying to get rich off our dime" mentality.

Unfortunately, MIRR, you miss the actual point of this discussion. That is the fact that, in general, all the remaining manufacturers from what was once a relatively broad industry are currently pricing themselves completely away from and out of the traditional hobby of model railroading. I don't think anyone here honestly believes that their sole objective is to "get rich" anytime soon. But their objective very clearly IS to increasing offer items affordable essentially to just a limited, relatively wealthy, clientele in ever smaller numbers. In other areas of interest such practices are generally regarded as the creation of a "collectibles" market, not modeling.

The traditional hobby of model railroading's popularity was based on craftsmanship and affordability. During the years prior to WWII, when indeed a person's relative wealth tended to be a major factor in their ability to participate in the hobby, Model Railroader magazine estimated that the total number of hobbyists in the United States probably numbered between 5,000 and 10,000. Because of the high prices, most hobbyists owned no more than one or two kitbuilt locomotives if fortunate. It was a true niche interest. But during the 1950's, when relatively inexpensive diecast loco kits from Mantua, Penn Line, Varney, et al, began appearing, together with cheap shake-the-box car kits, hobby participation exploded, reaching about 100,000 by decade's end. Already by 1955-57 model railroading was regarded as the second most popular hobby in the United States...and that was not counting the millions of Lionel/Flyer juvenile enthusiasts at the time!

For decades the hobby remained based on the premise that a given product and its necessary replacement parts would be available for extended periods. This allowed for highly popular kitbashing projects to appear in magazines and remain applicable for years on end. Today, in almost every situation, it is necessary to immediately purchase an item within weeks or no more than maybe a month of issue at a high price, or lose out perhaps forever. Various circumstances (particularly having the money available right at the moment) can conspire to leave the hobbyist unable to acquire a truly desired model even six months down the road...one that he may not see a second run of for years, if ever.

I fully understand today's concepts/models about marketing with higher costs for increasingly limited runs of virtually custom items and the "no stock" approach. These ideas I understand from the seller's point of view, but in a hobby that survived decades on cheap, longterm availability, the modern concept of selling will ultimately result in the demise of the hobby. The bulk of today's hobbyists are Baby Boomers, many now in retirement and on fixed incomes. Aiming products at an increasingly rich elite without regard to the situation and needs of the bulk of the hobby's membership, will only generate an income for a very limited interval. Imported brass started out in the 50's as an "every man's" alternative to American made diecast locomotives, competing directly in price. In time it shifted direction toward a smaller and smaller group of individuals who demanded greater and great detail on their models, with pricing to match. Whereas brass commanded a very significant portion of the HO market by the 1960's, today it is but an insignificant niche aspect in model railroading. Does that evolution not exactly mimic the path nearly all today's HO suppliers are following?

Scale model railroading has always been a Baby Boomer fascination; one subsequent generations have demonstrated only a very modest interest in. It thrived among the Baby Boomers because of affordability and availability. Eliminate both of those aspects from one's product line and you are increasingly cutting off the bulk of your customer base. There will be no influx of vast numbers of wealthy Generation X's that will perpetuate model railroading long into the future. Considering how many older hobbyists that I personally know have already halted their purchase of new items, if the marketing concept of our hobby does not dramatically alter soon and particularly if the current economy continues, we may well be in the final decade of seeing model railroading as being a viable hobby among the masses.

CNJ999

I don't feel I've missed the point of the point of the conversation at all. I'm only highlighting an aspect of it as too many of these themes (however valid they may be) keep popping up.

I've seen plenty a babyboomer complain about not being able to kitbash like they used to because of failing vision or lack of physical capacity to do some of the handwork involved. I personally had no problems assembling kits since I've entered the hobby and I still due on rare occasions but mostly the resin stuff (I'm on the younger end of the hobby) but I also appreciate the time savings of having it done for me, provided the price is reasonable.

The finer detail is what we've been asking for over the decades. With the new trend/business model, manufacturers are able to meet this request (initially at lower costs) but labor compensation demands are catching up. The manufacturers aren't leaving a group behind. They'd much prefer a broader customer base but simply lowering prices of products is not going to solve the problem, nor is going back to producing kits. Is it possible that things in China get so out of hand that they just go back to the kit model with lower prices? Perhaps. There's really no telling right now but I think manufacturers do have their "breaking point" in that regard. The pain we feel, I assure you, the manufacturers feel too. Most manufacturers' roots start with model railroaders like you and me. Just look at Rapido. Every manufacturer wants to be the highest quality and most affordable. Makes them look good and keeps them in business when managed properly.

There are plenty of areas for modeling that no manufacturer can cleanly satisfy unless you are very wealthy. That's doing actual landscaping and layout construction. That's a completely customized aspect of the hobby that has no mass-production solution (unless you're ok with the generic stuff). Detailed RTR leaves more time for layout construction for the modeler.

The Brass market is the brass market. They will continue to be that aspect of the hobby reserved to the more wealthy collectors and not the hobbyist (although hobbyists prefer brass over plastic in some, most or all cases). The plastic market has been offering brass detail products that we have also been asking for.

You know the old saying; "be careful what you ask for, you just might get it". I guess my rational thinking had always been that the higher quality will come at some additional cost. Fortunately, the price difference is still within an "affordable" range when compared to the brass alternative.

Kyle,

The basic nature of the hobby has been changed by the manufacturers. What used to be a craftsman's hobby has become a plug-and-play hobby. I can't follow what you are saying about manufacturers making kitbashed products available, or plastic model manufacturers offering detail parts for brass locos (is that what you really meant?).

The brass market is not what that market was in the 1960's. Back then, brass models were an upscale alternative to plastic models. A typical model railroader might have two or three to augment his plastic locos. Now that brass loco might cost as much as the rest of the railroad combined. Now the plastic locos have moved into the price level once occupied by brass, while brass has become prohibitively expensive. Thus, the brass market is practically dead. It has priced itself out of existence.

The plastic market seems determined to follow the brass market off the cliff. The manufacturers have seen a market niche open up where the brass locos used to be.
So load up a formerly simple plastic model with extra detail, and things your mouthpiece (the model railroad press) keeps telling your customers "have to have" like DCC, sound, smoke, and God knows what else, and jump the price up so the return per unit is high enough to cover the reduced sales this entails.

You mentioned the tax the manufacturer pays on unsold inventory. How much of that tax is paid when the warehouse is located in Communist China? That country, knowing its economy is based on export sales to the west, is not likely to do anything to undercut its manufacturers.

What do you do when your customers balk at paying extra for all those features they may not even want? Refuse to build anything that doesn't include them. Maybe include an option for the Troglodytes who don't want that, allow them to disable certain functions, but be sure they have to pay for them in any case.

These guys know the hobby has about run its course after 120 years. Build units that can maximize profit on a per-unit basis; make no long-term commitments as far as stock and parts availability. Come up with a "Plan B" to switch production to coffeemakers.

What about the rare newcomers to the hobby? The students who can't afford all that high-priced stuff? If you even care to cater to them at all, here is what you do:
Offer "train sets" that contain equipment that is incompatible with the regular offerings. Include locomotives that cannot be converted to the new "industry standard" without machine work. Of course, the powerpacks won't work with anything but DC also.
Or, include DCC locos and powerpack, but make it so basic that if the buyer wishes to expand his loco assortment he has to buy a greatly more expensive unit. Either way, he will be spending a great deal more money than he would on a DC railroad.
The final touch? Raise the price of the DC locos to near that of the DCC ones. Then discontinue the DC stuff entirely.

I think an opportunity still exists for manufacturers to correct this situation. MRC is still building top-quality DC power packs. Atlas is still making (I think) a full line of control components for DC railroads. A DC model railroad has many advantages over a DCC model railroad, but you'll never read about them in the press. The circuits are hard-wired from the powerpack to the selector switches to the track. An open circuit means a broken connection somewhere, usually where the feeder wire attaches to the track. Trouble-shooting usually requires only your eyeballs. When the throttle is turned to "off" on a DC railroad, there is no power in the track. If you accidentally set something conductive across the rails while working on the track, or due to a derailment, nothing gets fried. Best of all, no modification or programming is needed to get a locomotive to work on the railroad. Take the thing out of the box and it is ready to use. Locos you have owned for decades are usable as-is.

Appearance-wise, a DC model railroad is no different than a DCC model railroad. But the difference in cost will allow the DC railroad to have more of everything: more locos, more trains, more buildings.

I have a moderate-size N-scale railroad. I have around 60-65 locomotives and 200+ passenger cars. I have a thousand dollar's worth of track and track switches alone. All my equipment is DC, except for my switch motors, which run on fixed-voltage AC. I have 11 Atlas Selectors, 3 Atlas Controllers, 40 powered switches, two turntables, an MRC dual throttle powerpack, two Bachmann power packs for controlling turntables, two additional small powerpacks for switch machine power, three homemade switch boxes for cutting power to loco storage tracks, many Radio Shack barrier strips, and what must be several hundred feet of wiring. My point is not to brag about what I have, but to make the point that I could have had DCC if i had wanted it. My railroad was started in 2009 and completed in 2011. It is hard to say how many like it will be built before our hobby goes away, but probably not many more big DC railroads.

At today's prices and state of technology, if my railroad were destroyed or stolen, I would not rebuild it. I don't think I would be satisfied with what I could get for the
value of it, even though it is practically new.

Les

Doesn't Accurail still make rolling stock kits?

Desertdweller wrote:Kyle,

The basic nature of the hobby has been changed by the manufacturers. What used to be a craftsman's hobby has become a plug-and-play hobby. I can't follow what you are saying about manufacturers making kitbashed products available, or plastic model manufacturers offering detail parts for brass locos (is that what you really meant?).

Sorry if I wasn't clear. I was referring to manufacturers producing products that otherwise would have been (and still can be) kitbashed by craftsmen.

The other statement I was referring to what you had mentioned; plastic models having the same level of detail as brass products.

You raise an interesting point regarding the possibility of manufacturers seeing the gap that the brass industry left with regards to pricing. That may be true, but a major driver behind both is cost of production. Like brass, plastic costs. Fortunately for plastics (until recently anyway) the costs haven't shot up like Brass. At the risk of deviating from the topic, if anyone has followed the Three Brothers/Holgate Reynolds/Golden Spike Industries stainless steel Budd Gallery cars, you'll note that the cost of aluminum (that's what was used to make these cars) shot up tremendously making it prohibitively expensive to produce and thus sell for even higher prices (just to break even) than they were currently demanding (somewhere on the order of $50/$60 per car and not nearly on the detail level as the Walthers stuff that retails for roughly $80; and this was as recently as 2004).

Like I mentioned before. There are still companies that produce less-detailed, entry-level products. We just don't pay attention to them because we're WAY beyond that in our modeling and I'm in no way suggesting looking to that as an option. As we advance in our modeling, so do our expectations and that's what's also driving the market on the supply side.

As for the DC/DCC thing, it's a matter of personal preference. There's nothing wrong with staying with DC. My layout is actually still "transitional" as it can support the operation of both, and simultaneously at that (it's the same principal of wiring two cabs to individually control each track on the layout). I don't think that is as much of a contributor to the problem. If anything, it helps attract more new hobbyists who are old enough and have the disposable income to invest in it. I see new or returning hobbyists who were drawn by the added features of DCC/Sound as I've personally recommended a particular DCC system to several men who had quite a few years on me (I'm not even 30 yet). Less than 10 years ago, I was not in the position I'm in now to pay these kinds of prices (thank GOD this wasn't as much of an issue then or I'd be much further behind). DCC offers so much more flexibility beyond easy layout wiring.

I have often pondered the doomsday scenario myself. I dread the moment if that ever happens. I've debated whether or not I'd rebuild, change scales and go with N or no longer pursue Model Railroading. The big decision factor would rest more so with availability of what was lost. If most of what I lost could not be reasonably replaced, I'd be even more discouraged from rebuilding the railroad.

Kyle,

It's a damn shame that there is no organization of the type Bigt asked about in the original post. We surely need one. Maybe forums like this one is as close as we are going to get. At least with a forum like this one, there is no one with their hands in the pockets of the organization.

I also post on the Bachmann Forum. Even though that forum is sponsored by a manufacturer, they are tolerant of opinions expressed. Of course, they do not welcome bashing of their products, but Bachmann seems (to me at least) to be more responsive to their customer's requests than other manufacturers. They have done a major re-design of their remote-control switches, and I think they did that in direct response to problems customers were having with the original design. Manufacturers who are willing to actually re-engineer their products deserve support.

When I got started in this hobby in 1968, there were model railroaders and there were railroad model collectors. I was partly both, having an actual model railroad but collecting with an eye on the "bucket list" railroad I now have. I suspect the brass locos were acquired mostly by the collectors. Probably they spent so much on the models they could not afford a railroad.

I spent so much on the railroad I could not afford the brass.

If you get the chance to look at some old "Railroad Model Craftsman" magazines from the 1960's, there was a regular contributor named Bill Shoppe. Bill's thing was to take brass steam locomotives apart and modify them into models not available commercially. At the time (I don't know if there still are) a number of companies that were aftermarket suppliers of standardized brass parts: various styles of feedwater heaters, pop-off valves, injectors, air pumps, etc. I doubt if today's market could support such a thing, or if there are people left who would understand what these parts are supposed to look like and function.

It seems no one wants to take their mega-buck brass locomotives apart these days. I suspect the day will come when the same applies to plastic locomotives.

Bill's tools included razor saws, Dremel tools, and soldering irons. One day, a reader complained that he did not know how to solder. Bill suggested he take up stamp collecting.

A later issue of the same magazine featured an article by a guy named David Winter. David wrote a feature on his N-scale railroad called "The Winter Park Regional Railroad". It was the basis of my home railroad that lasted 28 years, and inspired a friend's railroad also. David wrote an article titled "Ersatz Diesel Detailing" in which he showed how to convincingly detail N-scale Diesels using everyday junk found around the house. It was very inspiring to me. You just don't find stuff like that published any more.

We need to get the message out that the pleasure of model railroading is not really what you have, but what you do with it. There is a lot of pleasure to be had from kitbashing models and running them that has nothing to do with the cost. The very time spent building and painting something is added hobby value. As we move, or are moved away from that, we are lessening the ability of the hobby to weather the tough times a lot of us think are coming.

Les

CNJ999, I could not have said it better myself.....your post was exactly what I was talking about. And, Kyle,
I agree with you to a certain extent. However, I am not saying that the highly detailed, performance driven items
that we are now seeing from the manufacturers are a bad thing. Yes, I am sure they do have their place within the
hobby. I simply do not agree with the vast majority of the manufacturers leaving behind those of us who do not wish
to own these items, or, in probably most cases, cannot afford these items, simply because they see it as the only way
to survive. There is still a need, and a demand, for good, sound, basic "shake the box" type kits, whether they be cars,
locos or buildings. I will never be persuaded from that belief. There are a few companies that still produce kits, Accurail comes to
mind simply because they are my choice. They fill my need very nicely, and, at a reasonable price. Their kits are as detailed
as I need. But, I also know that if I choose to do so, I can take one of their inexpensive kits and add detail to it...to the
level that I want. I also can cut-up one of their kits and not shed a tear while I am doing it, or, if I botch the kitbash, knowing
full well that I am not throwing away a good sum of modelling money that I paid for one of the R-T-R high priced pieces we now
see. Irv Athearn made his products right here in the USA. And, I am sure there were a warehouse or two full of Athearn product,
tax or no tax. But, if you went to your hobby shop looking for a particular Athearn product and they did not have it, well, you
knew that a simple order and in a short time you would have what you wanted....pretty much regardless of what YEAR Mr. Athearn
produced the kit. Were they highly detailed - no. But, they were an excellent starting point for the modeller who wanted to add more
detail. If this was not the case, well, you had a neat piece of railroad equipment to operate just as it came from the box (with a little
work by the buyer). This held true for many of the manufacturers. I guess what I am trying to say is this: it would be darn nice to still
have a choice, to still be able to get another one of the box kits that you built three months ago, or three years ago. That is the way many,
many of us built our railroads - piece by piece - whenever the allowance came along, the paycheck left enough over for a kit or two, and so on.
Now, it is more like an adventure in how to finance the new kit or product. That is what I am bemoaning - the lack of choice. As one of my
fellow modellers recently said after looking at and pricing one of the new locomotive offerings, " I expect to see a real miniature trust plate
mounted on the frame or cab to indicate the bank holding the financing on this thing"! How true. Once again, I thank all of you who have
replied with your thoughts and comments.

I think ones perception of the hobby is heavily shaded by the people in the hobby you know..
I found this statement very interesting:

CNJ999 wrote:
Scale model railroading has always been a Baby Boomer fascination; one subsequent generations have demonstrated only a very modest interest in. It thrived among the Baby Boomers because of affordability and availability. Eliminate both of those aspects from one's product line and you are increasingly cutting off the bulk of your customer base. There will be no influx of vast numbers of wealthy Generation X's that will perpetuate model railroading long into the future.

CNJ999

Here in Rochester NY our biggest annual train show is put on by the college students of the RITMRC:

http://ritmrc.org/

I have been going to the show every year for almost 10 years,
(I am in a G-gauge club that always has a display at the show)
My view of the hobby, living in Rochester NY:

50% of model railroaders are under 30..
Modeler railroaders in the 18 to 25 year old range far outnumber those above 60.
Gen-X'ers (I am one) are just coming back to the hobby, as we reach 40 years old and finally have some disposable income.
(many people are into model railroading as teenagers..drop out of the hobby in their 20's and 30's as other priorities take over (jobs, dating, marriage, mortgage, kids), and come back to the hobby in the 40's and older)

Im not seeing the doom-and-gloom..I never have seen it..
I have been involved in the hobby since the 80's, and it seems more healthy now than ever..
new products come out all the time..they wouldn't be coming out if the market wasn't there.

yes, I will grant you things are more expensive..but also, they are not...because there have always been expensive trains, and less expensive trains.
When I was a teenager in 1985 modeling in HO scale I couldn't afford a $100 Rivarossi steam engine, So I bought and ran Tyco diesels..
I was thrilled when I could afford an Athearn SD40-2..
There are a TON of cheap trains out there for people just getting into the hobby..
trains shows are littered with cheap used trains..and there are affordable new trains too..
sure, we cant have it all..but we never could.

im still not seeing the problem..

Scot