On-Board Generators for Passenger Cars?

[David Benton]

who would want to sit in as cafe car with a generator running underneath ?
i really think this discussion has shown that onboard generators are not really practical or desirable . i remember been on mexican trains with a generator roaring underneath each car , not good . Sure a modern generator can be quiet , and vibration reduced to some extent , but youve still got fumes to worry about .
i think battery / inverter systems to provide enough power to run led lights , small fans , power doors etc is enough for almost all emergcencies .

[ThirdRail7]

both are unfeasable and things will not change

I agree. Like I said, we have enough stuff to keep maintained as it is. They are not about to invest in MORE things to go wrong and need maintenance just for the two times a year that a train gets stranded in the hot/cold.

And what did they do years ago in the days before HEP, and the days when there were cars some with AC some without? We lived. I think we will still live.

No disrespect intended, but if you REALLY believe this is a twice a year problem, you should spend less time on this board and more time looking at the daily operational advisories. This is happening at least twice a WEEK. Just this week, you had 91 out there for almost 3 hours between Wilmington and Baltimore with a dead spicy meatball. It got so cold, they transferred everyone off, only to put them back on in Washington when it arrived with the rescue engine. Sure, they were able to transfer the people, but in doing so, the railroad was paralyzed and numerous other trains took a bath. You also run the risk of injuries when you do a train to train transfer in inclement weather.

If they had an auxiliary power source for the HEP, a rescue could have been launched without the transfer and the railroad in the area wouldn't have been shut down.

601 was also kaput without HEP this week and passengers were out there until transferred to 605.

It was fortunate that trains were in the area, but this isn't always the case (such as 141 on Metro-North territory a few days ago. Dead with the 909). The point is, this is not some rare, unusual occurrence that can't be avoided.

The good thing about the Amtrak management purge that has been occurring is a lot of people with "old ways" of thinking are being replaced. They are being replaced with people willing to take chances and make suggestions. Will this plan work? Maybe so, maybe not. But, at least it has gained traction in certain levels and the obstructionists that existed and said "no, it can't be done" without even opening a dialogue are no longer around to elbow it aside.

I completely disagree with Dutchrailnut's position. It IS feasible and not only will things change, they already HAVE.

[ThirdRail7]

who would want to sit in as cafe car with a generator running underneath ?
i really think this discussion has shown that onboard generators are not really practical or desirable . i remember been on mexican trains with a generator roaring underneath each car , not good . Sure a modern generator can be quiet , and vibration reduced to some extent , but youve still got fumes to worry about .
i think battery / inverter systems to provide enough power to run led lights , small fans , power doors etc is enough for almost all emergcencies .

Someone this stuck on the Shore Line in a catenary outage for 3 hours probably wouldn't mind.

Someone who is stuck outside of Erie PA for 2 hours while a disabled diesel is set out in the winter probably wouldn't mind.

Again, the intent is for emergency use.

I'm sure the 62 year old women who had to abandon 91 a few days ago would have preferred it to hitting the ballast.

[DutchRailnut]

again you won't see any of these other generators, its simply technically undoable.
as for loosing power, just count your blessings for not being on a plane

[mtuandrew]

again you won't see any of these other generators, its simply technically undoable.
as for loosing power, just count your blessings for not being on a plane

At least a plane has ram-air generators when it loses hotel power

I don't think Amtrak needs to set its cars up with diesel or propane generators. The exception would be NPCUs (both F40 and, eventually, AEM7-based) to relieve the need for a protect locomotive off the corridor. It's not such a hardship considering that they're inspected like any locomotive, and could be fueled at the same base.

As for the rest of the cars, is it possible to feed the 480VAC HEP system from an external 120 or 240 VAC generator? I'm picturing the welding-style generators that ride in the back of a light-duty or medium-duty utility truck, such as exist in every small town and on every railroad system. Such a generator probably couldn't power multiple cars, but might be able to heat or cool one or two, and a few could keep a train full of people tolerably comfortable. Of course, 220v couldn't directly feed the HVAC system, so cars would need an onboard AC-AC converter - could Amtrak do this?

[Tadman]

Mod note:

1. Remember this discussion is not about regular HEP, it's about emergency backup HEP.

2. ThirdRail7 has been very credible in the past, I wouldn't discount what he says.

3. Remember this discussion is not about regular HEP, it's about emergency backup HEP.

I think I need to say #1/3 twice because people keep forgetting what we're discussing here. It's NOT normal HEP requirements.

[Tadman]

Strictly as a passenger and not a moderator, how many people here have been in a modern sealed railcar when the HVAC takes a dump?

Last summer, when the heat was bad enough to be causing slow orders, I had the pleasure of riding on an 8-car train with 2-3 hot cars - the AC quit. Fortunately the catenary and propulsion were just fine so the crew evacuated the affected cars and the train kept moving, but those cars were darn hot. I mean stifling. Anybody with a propensity for breathing problems or the like would've been hurting soon. The cars were more uncomfortable than being outside, because the air didn't move. I know this, because I also had the pleasure of sitting on the platform in suit/tie waiting 45 extra minutes for the train due to slow orders. There's nothing like showing up for a dinner looking like you ran a mile in your suit...

[TomNelligan]

Strictly as a passenger and not a moderator, how many people here have been in a modern sealed railcar when the HVAC takes a dump?

Me, as I wrote way back on page 1. I fully agree with your description of the conditions inside an unventilated sealed coach that's full of people generating body heat with the sun beating down outside on a 90 degree day. It's not just uncomfortable; after an hour or two it becomes a health hazard for some folks (little kids, seniors, pregnant women, folks with breathing issues).

[ApproachMedium]

As for the rest of the cars, is it possible to feed the 480VAC HEP system from an external 120 or 240 VAC generator? I'm picturing the welding-style generators that ride in the back of a light-duty or medium-duty utility truck, such as exist in every small town and on every railroad system. Such a generator probably couldn't power multiple cars, but might be able to heat or cool one or two, and a few could keep a train full of people tolerably comfortable. Of course, 220v couldn't directly feed the HVAC system, so cars would need an onboard AC-AC converter - could Amtrak do this?

No, because these types of generators are single phase AC and the cars use 480VAC. You would need a motor turning a 3 phase alternator with a voltage regulation system. All of the blowers, compressors and heating elements are 480vac 3 phase.

As for the AEM-7s none will be made in to cabbages, they removed this from the plans. The DCs are going to be scrapped and ACs are offered to MARC and any remaining will be disposed of.

[mtuandrew]

All of the blowers, compressors and heating elements are 480vac 3 phase.

Gotcha. Well, there are three-phase welder-generators available too, like this one and others from Miller and Lincoln, and the linked one supplies 480 VAC 3-phase. I don't know how common these are, but I'd guess they're relatively more common on heavy-duty work trucks such as a railroad might own. They would probably be able to get anywhere in an hour, and though it couldn't help a train on the move, it could definitely help a stalled one get warm or stay cool. Can any MOW guys answer that definitively?

[Jtgshu]

I don't understand why anyone would be against this, especially railroaders. I really don't....heres a few points as to why I simply don't get it.....

1) its a win-win for Amtrak in the sense that when a train breaks down they don't have to worry about passenger comfort and safety by having a lack of HEP. Gives them a little extra time to get things rolling and in some cases, it literally won't be a life or death situation for the stranded passengers. Also, the "back up plan" will be looked at very favorably by the passengers and in some cases, the media, bringing lots of good will towards the company and really making the best out of a bad situation

2) its a win-win for the passengers in that when the train breaks down, its not going to be totally dark and hot/cold. It might not be as comfy as regular HEP, especially if all the cars can't be powered, but it will be tolerable.

3) allows for easier rescue by a freight railroad or borrowing a freight loco, as the need for HEP isn't there, as the train can provide it itself. Can get the train underway with whatever power is close by (freight RRs will like that!) and still provide HEP for the passengers.

4) its a win-win for Amtrak MECHANICAL employees, in that "its another thing to inspect in the yard"....that means JOB SECURITY. Heck, it might even mean a few more jobs. Maybe the 300 track guys that were laid off could get first dibs on positions. ANYTHING that requires more skilled workers to work and maintain and inspect things is a wonderful things. Considering the amount of commuter contracts that Amtrak has lost in recent years, anything like this should be welcomed with open arms by the workers. (yes, I went there - haha)

5) its a win-win for Amtrak management, as its a PRO-ACTIVE move, instead of a REACTIVE move, which is a welcome change.

6) its a relatively simple solution to a MAJOR problem.

Is it a perfect plan? No, of course, not, but its something, its thinking outside the box, and it has far reaching benefits, far beyond those passengers and crew members who will obviously benefit from it when they are stranded in the middle of no-where with no help at all on the horizon in a snow storm or heat wave. If folks can't see that, there are a lot of cliches that apply then and can be inserted right here: _______________________________________ .

Make it work and stop trying to find faults or negatives, or else the wrong person might read it and agree and kill the whole dang thing.

[Jtgshu]

as a side note, NJT uses Caterpillar 3406 diesel engines (which are found in lots of road trucks and other applications as well as other commuter railroads across the country), which really arne't that big. If you are going to have a small engine like that welder/generator package, it would still have to be maintained, etc, so why not just got a little further and get a common package (the 3406 with generator skid) and actually be able to power up a good amount of cars on the train. Maybe not all the cars, but if thats the case, then the crew can pull the 480 cables and short loop train so out of 10 cars you get 5 with full lights and power, or decide what cars get the HEP on the train and kill the power to high drawing cars, like the diner, sleepers, whatever.

A big circuit breaker in cars that would be accessible to the crew that would make it easy for it to be flipped so it would allow the HEP to bypass the car would be great. The crew then could shut down that car without having to pull any jumpers and prevent power getting to cars behind it, that might want power. Or maybe just a big HEP circuit breaker in heavy draw cars like a diner or something. That way if the coaches are on the far end of the train, the diners/sleepers aren't sucking up all the power before they can reach the coaches. It would be better to power the coaches if there isnt' enough HEP capacity to power the entire train.

[ApproachMedium]

as a side note, NJT uses Caterpillar 3406 diesel engines (which are found in lots of road trucks and other applications as well as other commuter railroads across the country), which really arne't that big. If you are going to have a small engine like that welder/generator package, it would still have to be maintained, etc, so why not just got a little further and get a common package (the 3406 with generator skid) and actually be able to power up a good amount of cars on the train. Maybe not all the cars, but if thats the case, then the crew can pull the 480 cables and short loop train so out of 10 cars you get 5 with full lights and power, or decide what cars get the HEP on the train and kill the power to high drawing cars, like the diner, sleepers, whatever.

A big circuit breaker in cars that would be accessible to the crew that would make it easy for it to be flipped so it would allow the HEP to bypass the car would be great. The crew then could shut down that car without having to pull any jumpers and prevent power getting to cars behind it, that might want power. Or maybe just a big HEP circuit breaker in heavy draw cars like a diner or something. That way if the coaches are on the far end of the train, the diners/sleepers aren't sucking up all the power before they can reach the coaches. It would be better to power the coaches if there isnt' enough HEP capacity to power the entire train.

Cars already have this basically, there is a main 480 breaker, and then other breakers in the 480 cabnet that can be turned on and off as needed for things such as the toilet system, AC compressors and floor heating. Amfleets it is under the car, but in the event that they needed to cut back on power consumption they can turn the "silver switch" for the HVAC to off or Layover, and turn off a the upper and lower cove lights.

As for the generators and more jobs, I am all for that part of it. TRUST ME. I am all for seeing Amtrak with an even better image. I just somehow see the reality here that they will either get them and hire no extra help and then assume the work on current employees to save money, or they will hire new people for a year or two something will happen and then they will lay them off and drop the work on one or two of these new employees that are left behind and work them dead.

Having the generators and advertising this to the passengers would be a great thing for PR. People would have the peace of mind that if the train does break down, they will stay comfy. But now what happens when the seldom used generator fails or the crews cant get it to start? Now the public says well what good is this and again looses confidence in Amtrak. It seems in todays world the only news is bad news, and esp if Amtrak has a problem everyone knows about it. Ask your common friends sometime if they know for how many years in a row Amtrak has set ridership records now. I bet they dont have a clue, because its something good.

[25Hz]

Strictly as a passenger and not a moderator, how many people here have been in a modern sealed railcar when the HVAC takes a dump?

Last summer I was on a train with comet 2 and 4, 10 car train. Around hamilton the whole train went dead then we started moving again but with no lights or HVAC. When i got out at newark penn the conductor i was talking to a bit said the locomotive was having problems from the heat.

It's an erie thing when the sound goes quiet and the acceleration up to 100 stops at 70-80 & you're coasting as the lights and HVAC go off.

[mtuandrew]

...As for the generators and more jobs, I am all for that part of it. TRUST ME. I am all for seeing Amtrak with an even better image. I just somehow see the reality here that they will either get them and hire no extra help and then assume the work on current employees to save money, or they will hire new people for a year or two something will happen and then they will lay them off and drop the work on one or two of these new employees that are left behind and work them dead.

Having the generators and advertising this to the passengers would be a great thing for PR. People would have the peace of mind that if the train does break down, they will stay comfy. But now what happens when the seldom used generator fails or the crews cant get it to start? Now the public says well what good is this and again looses confidence in Amtrak. It seems in todays world the only news is bad news, and esp if Amtrak has a problem everyone knows about it. Ask your common friends sometime if they know for how many years in a row Amtrak has set ridership records now. I bet they dont have a clue, because its something good.

I fully agree with ApproachMedium. That's why I suggested portable generator hookups, with a listing of local on-call juice providers, as an alternate method that wouldn't be dependent on Amtrak's maintenance. I'm not impugning Amtrak Mechanical's work at the equipment bases or at Bear, Wilmington and Beech Grove, but we don't know when Amtrak's maintenance budget will get slashed again. When (not if) that happens, little things will gradually stop functioning like sinks, passenger power outlets, overhead lights and emergency HEP generators.

I'd hate to see Amtrak invest money in something usable like this, without having the wherewithal to keep it in shape.