• Official Trackless Trolley Thread/Tracker

  • Discussion relating to commuter rail, light rail, and subway operations of the MBTA.
Discussion relating to commuter rail, light rail, and subway operations of the MBTA.

Moderators: sery2831, CRail

  by 3rdrail
 
You Rozzie Rat Aline !! Yeah, the Square was my hangout. You either wound up dead, in prison, a priest, or a cop with it as a background. The best overhead turnout was Wash/South, where the Charles River coaches split off onto the right up South St. Wash was two directions back then with Dedham Line and Charles River cars meeting between South and Poplar on Wash (Dedham out & in - River out) I can still hear that CRACK!!! at Wash/South with poles arcing and going every which way with the coach stopping near the Rialto for a re-wire. Certain miscreants were known for pulling a pole of its wire using the retriever rope back then. (It wasn't me!)

  by RailBus63
 
F-line to Dudley via Park wrote: The heavy ridership more-than justifies it. It's absurd how many 77 diesels come by in a row when the bulk of the ridership only goes as far as North Cambridge.
I'm not sure I agree. Based on my periodic trips on the 77, the bulk of the passengers do ride beyond North Cambridge, and 77 buses headed to Arlington usually pick up a number of passengers in Porter Square headed to East Arlington and beyond. The local ridership from Cameron Ave. inbound seems to be much lower - as another poster wrote, many local Mass. Ave. passengers likely opt for Red Line service from Davis or Porter stations.

What the MBTA should do is take a page from New York City and run both 'limited' and 'local' service along the entire route to separate those passengers traveling longer distances from the truly local riders. MTA New York City Transit does this on numerous bus routes and it works well, including the M15 First and Second Avenue route in Manhattan which carries more passengers every day than the MBTA's Blue Line.

  by CRail
 
That's true, when a 77A pulls up (A 71/73 bullback to North Cambridge) most people pass it up, and those who ride (myself for example) usually ride to the end and walk a short distance beyond the overhead. I often get the bus to myself, however, while the platform is full of passengers for the 77. If you asked me, the overhead should continue to the Heights as it did before, the time we start ignoring Arlington's NIMBY population is long overdue!

  by F-line to Dudley via Park
 
Speaking of 77A's, I saw a Neoplan just yesterday evening signed 77 heading past Porter to the yard. Probably was one of the run-thrus from the other lines since it was off-peak, but usually they're still signed 71/72/73 all the way.

I was thinking of decicated 77A's more as a rush-hour only supplemental service because that's when the 77's are far too packed to the gills to even board, and then do the run-as-directed yard runs on the off-peaks for shift changes or instead of idling the TT outside of Harvard.

  by F-line to Dudley via Park
 
aline1969 wrote: as for the 57... rumor in the 1970's was to extend the 71 to Oak sq...... never happened. all part of the "get of the A line" ideas.
Wasn't a rumor...it was probably the most-serious proposal to-date to get the A restored. Blame Newton NIMBY's who didn't want any overhead whatsoever...ever...on their streets. Brighton was all for it, and it would've done the trick for restoration. And since that end of the line already had the express buses to downtown this would've been a better deal for them if some sort of free 71-to-express transfer had been finagled because they'd gain a faster one-seat to Harvard in the trade-off for the 57. But nooooooooo...can't have the wires that have already been there for 2/3 a century. So ultimately the need to also preserve the slow and redundant 57 for Newton's benefit hosed that chance of Brighton getting its rail back.

  by F-line to Dudley via Park
 
TomNelligan wrote:
octr202 wrote:Your plan does make perfect sense from an operational point of view. However, with the amount of attention that accessibility has gotten recently, this is a matter where political perception will outweigh operational practicality.
Indeed. This is Massachusetts, where political correctness often trumps both rationality and economics. But Neoplans versus Flyers aside, couldn't some diesel trips just short-turn at North Cambridge to restore the 77A without a need for additional equipment? I assume that a given bus could make at least two North Cambridge round trips in the same time it would take for one RT to Arlington Heights. I guess there's still the issue of increasing the number of diesel trips through the Harvard Square tunnel.
That would be completely pointless to use a diesel for a short-turn on an electrified ROW with extra vehicles available. And, yes, environmental concerns would trump all there. They do have to control the exhaust in the old tunnel, which they can't do with CNG's because it's a tunnel and because of the overhead wires. The residents of the new old folks' home built in front of North Cambridge yard would be none-too-pleased to have diesel runs in their backyard when the selling point of that place was that the vehicles going in/out of the yard are emission-free and near-silent. And you'd probably start seeing residents on Mass. Ave. complaining about a spike in diesel runs. What could work is doing an express to A. Heights, but the Cambridge corridor is operating at air quality capacity without the CNG option in play, and I bet the Arlington NIMBY's get a bug up their asses fast about added noise and fumes too. So they've got to be careful before the residents start looking at their legal options. That's a more affluent and politically active corridor than disadvantaged JP and Roxbury where they have been dogged by unresolved air quality disputes. The TT infrastructure is their main leverage to keep the peace and they can do it without costing themselves anything. Any service tradeoff for diesels where TT's can equally do the job is going to rankle, including the ADA advocates who are going to start worrying about air quality disadvantaging the handicapped.

Re: political correctness. Perspective, please. We'd be talking 2-4 more Flyers spread around ALL lines at peak hours...less on off-peak...to boost short-turn service. Is anyone, even the most nitpicky ADA advocate, even going to notice that if you have no more than 1 extra TT assigned to each line. You may see more Flyers out there on a given day today if there are Neoplans out of service. How many times recently have you seen Flyer after Flyer on a route before getting a Neoplan? It wouldn't happen here, either. That would be splitting hairs to an extreme for an improvement of service that's only going to involve extra runs being added to a route that's semi-official operating even to this day. Is anybody going to quibble with that, especially if it frees up space for a wheelchair on a 77 at peak-time crush.


No question the T wants to ditch the Flyers...they're 30 years old and can't be upgraded in any way. But new TT's are expensive (so expensive that they sank Neoplan with the last orders), and the surplus of Flyers are being held for active service and spruced up for a reason...and not because they're deathly afraid of offending someone by taking one out for a revenue run in a non-emergency setting. It improves service to have extra runs available. Nowhere in the ADA does it say that service cutbacks are a requirement to compliance when you don't have the money to upgrade it all in one fell swoop. If it were, you could kiss Mattapan goodbye in an instant. That's the whole reason why they have the relaxed-schedule grandfathering for old infrastructure. Whole transit modes would go away in agencies around the country without it.

Given that the T purchased a whole new fleet of low-floor TT's anyway when they could've just cut down the wires and run more diesels shows they're committed to ADA accessibility on the TT's. It's orders of magnitude better than it was just 3 years ago. But no one can be such an absolutist about compliance to expect infrastructure to be overturned overnight and for the T to either cut back service or junk perfectly reliable needed vehicles when they can't immediately afford to. They're in the process of replacing the entire bus fleet with low-floors, outfitting virtually the entire 110-year-old Green Line with ADA stations and low-floor cars, and adding high platforms to key CR routes. That's a ton of crucial upgrades which take precedent. Can't expect every place on every mode to hit absolute 100% compliance on the same schedule when there's that much ongoing work that has to be prioritized. They can buy some spare TT's when it's time to find a new manufacturer to expand the dual-mode SL fleet, or when they do studies about electrifying the whole 77 (since Arlington's starting to warm to that idea). If they can improve service in the meantime by mixing in a couple revenue Flyers that'll be ready to run for a few more years, it's only going to help everyone to do the sensible thing. I don't see how anyone could make a convincing argument that fewer runs, less service, and passing up existing capacity actually improves accessibility in any way.

  by octr202
 
F Line,

I'd love to see your short turn 77A system work, however, this is one where the political correctness is going to trump operational sense. I'm already seeing it on the 71/73 as it is -- I've seen a lot more diesels running Mon-Sat (at least a dozen, maybe more) than I've seen Flyers (one, total) in 10 months or so since they were pulled out of regular service. The reality already seems to be here -- not enough Neoplans, they run diesels.

The T's taken too much of a beating over accessibility for them to put the Flyers back out on regular runs. Yes, they should have bought more Neoplans to run the 77A -- but then, there's plenty of improvements where money could be spent -- extending the wires to Arlington, maybe a bus lane on Mystic Valley Parkway to allow more (and more attractive) 79 service to Alewife), and so on. But every one of those is practical, and every one of those will get tripped up for petty reasons. Such is life in our fair city.

  by rhodiecub2
 
Actually I heard that Newton actually wanted to use Trackless trolleys for a short extension of the 71 bus from Watertown to Oak Sq. It was metioned in another posting and I saw something on this website at one time about it, http://www.members.aol.com/netransit/
  by octr202
 
At least two Flyers were on the road as sleet cutters on Friday 3/16/07. 4006 observed outbound through Harvard (would go to Waverley) about 6:30 pm, and 4037 inbound passing the hospital shortly thereafter.

Around 7:30 pm, I ventured out through Waverley (beer run -- St. Patrick's Day nor'easter calls for a supply mission), 4006 was stuck on the turn from Church St. to Lexington St., the left pole with its shoe broken off. There were three Neoplans stuck at first, this grew to at least five by the time I came back about 15 minutes later.

As of this writing (9:20 pm), the T has this advisory for the 73:
Bus 73 Waverley Sq. - Harvard Station via Trapelo Road - experiencing 25-30 min inbound delays due to weather related problem/disabled train. 3/16/2007 7:46 PM
Perhaps news of the trackless trolley conversion takes a while to get around... :wink:
  by octr202
 
Added note -- both 4006 and 4037 have AFC fareboxes installed -- so Mr. F Line's ideas (which I like despite my thoughts that the T would be unlikely to implement) are certainly quite doable.
  by aline1969
 
octr202 wrote:At least two Flyers were on the road as sleet cutters on Friday 3/16/07. 4006 observed outbound through Harvard (would go to Waverley) about 6:30 pm, and 4037 inbound passing the hospital shortly thereafter.

Around 7:30 pm, I ventured out through Waverley (beer run -- St. Patrick's Day nor'easter calls for a supply mission), 4006 was stuck on the turn from Church St. to Lexington St., the left pole with its shoe broken off. There were three Neoplans stuck at first, this grew to at least five by the time I came back about 15 minutes later.

As of this writing (9:20 pm), the T has this advisory for the 73:
Bus 73 Waverley Sq. - Harvard Station via Trapelo Road - experiencing 25-30 min inbound delays due to weather related problem/disabled train. 3/16/2007 7:46 PM
Perhaps news of the trackless trolley conversion takes a while to get around... :wink:


I saw them out on sat. 3/17 and the shoes on the wire were glowing red, the neoplans shoes were red too...neither coach could cut ice that day.

  by rhodiecub2
 
Is there a map showing all of the trackless trolley lines at Harvard station or someplace else?

  by octr202
 
rhodiecub2 wrote:Is there a map showing all of the trackless trolley lines at Harvard station or someplace else?
There's a version of the system map with the trackless routes highlighted (including the now defunct 77A) in the car card rack on some of the Neoplans. The ones that went into service initially at North Cambridge got them -- most of the ones transferred from the Silver Line didn't.

Of course, all you need to see the trackless routes is the T's system map. Routes 71, 72, 73, and 77 between Harvard and North Cambridge (which is near where the Red Line crosses back under Mass. Ave. and the 77 between Davis and Alewife) comprises the trackless wire network.

  by CRail
 
While the 77A is not a scheduled run, it is most certainly not defunct. Almost every bus pulling out or pulling back to and from North Cambridge does so as a 77A (as discussed)

F Line:b
Minor note, the new building in front of and next to the carhouse and yard are Condo's, its not an old folks home.

What is the reason the Flyers aren't upgradeable in any way (just curious)?

Excellent point about running Flyers extra service. If they can still run the remaining RTS's theres no difference to that and running extra Flyer service.

octr202:
All of the remaining 10 Flyers have had the new fareboxes installed.

  by Ron Newman
 
The remaining 77A runs are shown on the published 77 schedule as trips that start or end in North Cambridge.
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