NYS rail plan announced

"* Creating the first “green” short line fleet in the nation."
Wow, Gensets for everyone!!! Just one question, who pays?

The benefits of high-speed rail between Buffalo and Albany expounded by politicians sound hauntingly familiar. (Recall the "economic development" promised by the Rochester Fast Ferry?!!)

This time however it’s $9.3 BILLION of our tax dollars. The ferry debacle now seems a real bargain at “only” $32 million(!)

How soon we taxpayers forget...

FarmallBob wrote:This time however it’s $9.3 BILLION of our tax dollars.

Out of my pocket? I had no idea I was good for $9.3 billion. At least they are finally using "my" money for railroads, like I wanted all along. How much have the highways, waterways, and aviation gotten over the years? I think the last major investment in rail by New York State was 1978... every thirty years isn't bad, I guess.

-otto-

Going backwards in time, it would be fun to read all of the naysayers that would have posted to a website to excoriate Governor Clinton for proposing to build a ditch across New York from Albany to a frontier village called Buffalo. Who in his right mind would ever have needed to improve travel time for passengers or freight through such no-account communities as Utica, Rome, Syracuse, Rochester or Buffalo?

Yes, property taxes are a huge impediment to development in Upstate New York today, but one of the reason for those high taxes stems from the isolation of Upstate cities and the resultant population exodus in search of jobs in places as close by as the New York City metropolitan area. Shave a couple of hours off from the commute time between Buffalo and Albany and that makes an easier connection between Buffalo and New York, without the hassle of airports, cabs, etc., on either end of the line.

The bottom line, IMHO, is this: what we have now is not working in terms of economic development. We have to make an investment, both financial and in faith, that we can turn our state around. If a shallow ditch could open up this state to an explosion of economic growth two centuries ago, perhaps another transportation improvement, this time in rail, will do the trick this time.

Otto is right. It's 30 years since we made any substantial investment in rail in New York. It's time to do it now and do it right!

FlatWheeler wrote: I hope they find a lot of immigrant Chinese and Mexican labor, and have whips and chains to boot.

That statement is incredibly racist and also historically inaccurate. It should be remembered that voluntary labor built this country's railroads. Pay might have been low by modern standards, and working conditions were austere, perhaps even downright dangerous depending on the terrain, but there is no reason to believe that management was intentionally abusive.

You comments are both offensive and inaccurate.

FlatWheeler wrote: Actually, that brings up an idea... why don't they use prison labor to do the tasks accomplished for dimes on the dollar back in the 1800's when this roadbed was all laid out by immigrants and slave labor.

Modern track work is heavily mechanized, and involved relatively small numbers of specialized, skilled laborers.

FlatWheeler wrote:Use of prison labor would save tons of redundant taxpayer expenses. There's no reason we should be paying for inmates to sit and eat up our taxes while we also pay contractors huge amounts to do what the inmates should be forced to do for dimes on the dollar.

In this era of welded rail, it should be obvious that you need "contractors" to do the work. You can't lay long sections of welded rail with large, unmechanized, unskilled track gangs of prisoners.

FlatWheeler wrote: Especially when prisons are overloaded and overbudget as it is. Wild ideas come with price, and I hope someone besides the taxpayers will be helping pay the price.

Actually, New York State prisons have fewer inmates today than they did a decade ago. Overcrowding isn't a problem any more. In fact, corrections officers are being laid off, and a number of prisons will no doubt be closed in coming years.

Once the Rockefeller drug laws are repealed, prison populations will decline further, adding to the current trend of releasing inmates early due to the ongoing budget crisis.

Gee wiz, johnwayne !!! Get real !
I was referring to double tracking the single track West Shore roadbed through Pittsford and Fairport, NY. You don't build or widen existing random stone arches and tunnels underneath the roadbed using modern mechanized track equipment. Also, the immigrant labor was a "tongue in cheek" referal to what we were taught back in our elementary school days.

But I didn't know that about our prison situation. News to me they are downsizing and reducing population numbers.

Schooltrain wrote:Going backwards in time, it would be fun to read all of the naysayers that would have posted to a website to excoriate Governor Clinton for proposing to build a ditch across New York from Albany to a frontier village called Buffalo. Who in his right mind would ever have needed to improve travel time for passengers or freight through such no-account communities as Utica, Rome, Syracuse, Rochester or Buffalo?

What ?! That was for a much larger change than shaving a few hours off an already existing mode of transportation. Clinton's Ditch would be like us building a high speed, elevated, monorail system across upstate. That's not what they're doing. It'll be existing railroad right of way, just a bit quicker. Not quicker by days, but by only a couple hours.

Schooltrain wrote:The bottom line, IMHO, is this: what we have now is not working in terms of economic development. We have to make an investment, both financial and in faith, that we can turn our state around. If a shallow ditch could open up this state to an explosion of economic growth two centuries ago, perhaps another transportation improvement, this time in rail, will do the trick this time.

Sure... Not to be pessimistic, but this won't be earth shattering technology. It's not going to create a time warp, or anything. It'll be an expensive upgrade of existing infrastructure, that has been neglected for the past 30 years and more recently after Conrail. Trust me, the money will be tight after getting to this point of upgrades. Is it worth it for shaving a few hours off here and there ? Perhaps it is. But will it help the NY economy... NO !!!

Schooltrain wrote:Otto is right. It's 30 years since we made any substantial investment in rail in New York. It's time to do it now and do it right!

Agreed, except I don't believe the money will go very far, and that the money will run out before enough is accomplished to make a positive difference to the economy.

Flat-Wheeler wrote:

Schooltrain wrote:Going backwards in time, it would be fun to read all of the naysayers that would have posted to a website to excoriate Governor Clinton for proposing to build a ditch across New York from Albany to a frontier village called Buffalo. Who in his right mind would ever have needed to improve travel time for passengers or freight through such no-account communities as Utica, Rome, Syracuse, Rochester or Buffalo?

What ?! That was for a much larger change than shaving a few hours off an already existing mode of transportation. Clinton's Ditch would be like us building a high speed, elevated, monorail system across upstate. That's not what they're doing. It'll be existing railroad right of way, just a bit quicker. Not quicker by days, but by only a couple hours.

Agree!

The Erie Canal represented a quantum leap forward in transportation technology - about like what the airplane was to the stagecoach.

However simply shaving an hour or two off the current rail schedule doesn't really change anything.

Schooltrain wrote:Otto is right. It's 30 years since we made any substantial investment in rail in New York. It's time to do it now and do it right!

Again I agree 100%!

The upstate region is long overdue for spending on rail transportation. And I would like as much as anyone to see HRS succeed here. However under the current NY economic and political environment I believe the probability of success of HRS to be vanishingly small.

High speed rail can only be one component of an upstate economic stimulus package. To rekindle industrial development NY ALSO needs a dramatic and demonstrated reduction of the burdensome tax structure; a reversal of onerous (and frequently idiotic) business regulations; a reduction in energy costs, etc.

Otherwise NY employers and residents – taxpaying residents at least – are gonna continue to vote with their feet as jobs continue to disappear. But all taxpayers may still be on the hook for a $9 billion high speed rail line connecting nowhere to nowhere. (Once again, remember the Rochester Fast Ferry?!)

Bottom line is HRS simply seems too unlikely to have a significant positive impact on the state economy - except perhaps for the duration of its construction.

FarmallBob wrote:But all taxpayers may still be on the hook for a $9 billion high speed rail line connecting nowhere to nowhere...

The Plan outlines priorities for funding consideration from the $9.3 billion dedicated for Intercity Rail in the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act, the reauthorization of the Federal Surface Transportation Act which is due October 1, 2009 and for the development of the next State transportation plan, which will succeed the current plan following the 2009-10 State Fiscal Year.

Specifically, it calls for:

* Doubling the number of intercity rail passengers along New York’s three major corridors: New York City to Albany, Albany to Niagara Falls and Albany to Montreal, as well as strategies to increase reliability on all three corridors;
* Providing frequent and convenient passenger rail service connecting cities across the State as an energy and time-saving alternative to driving or flying, helping to reduce congestion on highways and at airports. Rail plan goals include:
+ Achieving on-time performance of at least 95 percent between Albany and New York City;
+ Improving rail service between Albany and Niagara Falls, with connections in Utica, Syracuse and Rochester. The Plan includes a Third Track Initiative, which aims to establish a dedicated third track for high speed passenger rail service across Upstate from Niagara Falls to Albany with a potential for reducing the travel time by 2 hours or more;
+ Shortening the travel time for rail service between Albany and Montreal. Currently, trains take about eight hours to make that trip. The Plan’s goal is to reduce that time to 6.5 hours; and
+ Establishing new passenger service, where viable, such as between Saratoga and Albany, Niagara Falls and Buffalo, and Binghamton and New York City;
* Increasing freight rail usage by 25 percent to reduce growth of truck traffic and energy consumption;
* Allowing modern freight cars to access the New York City metro area and Long Island along routes east of the Hudson River;
* Adding at least three new intermodal facilities/inland ports across the State to serve the rapidly growing container segment of rail traffic, which will help remove long-haul trucks from highways and deliver products to consumers faster; and
* Creating the first “green” short line fleet in the nation.


In addition to the Third Track Initiative, the Plan identifies a number of rail infrastructure initiatives that would strategically improve intercity passenger rail service across New York State. Estimated to cost $671 million over the next five years, these priority projects are expected to be eligible for federal funding assistance. These rail infrastructure improvements would be implemented in partnership with rail service providers.

There's no $9 billion bullet train here that I can see? Can someone please point out the bullet train to me that everyone is worried the State is going to try to build?

Boy I hate to sound clueless here but to * Creating the first “green” short line fleet in the nation.
means what? Gensets operating independently under a new corporate name just run on the 'new' what I call 'T' corridor? Or Gensets to be operated by CSX, Amtrak (which means engines change over or allowed to go out of state which means never to be seen again probably)???? Or Gensets for the short lines in NYS????(Gonna be expensive considering the number of short lines...) Short line of what and where???

now the totally clueless chris

alsorailfan wrote:Boy I hate to sound clueless here but to * Creating the first “green” short line fleet in the nation.
means what?

Maybe the state will fund the purchase of genset hybrids to replace the conventional diesel fleet of a short line in New York... too expensive to re-equip every short line in the state!

Ohh boy there goes the ALCO's on WNY&P - LA&L- B&H - Buffalo Southern etc.

DutchRailnut wrote:Ohh boy there goes the ALCO's on WNY&P - LA&L- B&H - Buffalo Southern etc.

SSSSHHHHHH!!!!

Now everybody take a deep breath for a moment and forget your a railfan. What would REALLY be the bigger boon to the Upstate economy, returning track 3 to the Water Level or 6 laning the NYS Thruway? This proposal is just poltical theater. I'd like to see a study, an independant one not a Chuck Shumer contributor, that lays out the specific benefit to this "investment". Compairing modern day NY with the Mid 19 Century one is absured. The economic climate today is nothing like it was in 1850 when the Central was born. The Industrial Revolution was just building steam, no one heard of the Rust Belt or a "Global Economy". The idea of a paved Super Hyway likely never occured
to those in a package boat or click-ity-clacking along side the Mohawk at 30/per. The only thing flying back then were birds. A third track reinstalled along the Water Level at grade no less is beyond a waste.
NY is failing because of a lack of Passenger Rail Service? NOT. You now want to trust the State which pissed away how many millions on the NY-AL Turbo "High Speed Service" to yet another untold million/billion?
waste of the tax payers money? To quote Chucky, " It's a little porky" is the understatement of the year. Let's see Mr Schumer, your commitment to the Upstate by actually building that HS service between NY and Albany, a route that actually makes some sense. Should be easy givin the light freight traffic on the east side of the Hudson. Never forget that people left the trains and not the other way around.

Gee, did we forget that 8 months ago gas was over $4.00 a gal.? and the T-way auth. had to raise rates due to "under use? Rail has always been the most economical means to move freight and passengers. We got lazy and spoiled with 60 plus years of lots of gas and highways to everywhere. Oil is going to run out in 50 -80 years. Why wait till then to build a new future and conserve those resources while we still have them and hopefully extend their exsistance untill new sources of energy become available? We survived very well before the superhighways and Henry Ford. Or would you rather to wait till gas is $10. a gal.. See how much traffic is on that 6 lane thruway then? And the trains will still be here. BTW, The West Shore's ROW is still double track wide, bridges and all. No new width has to be added. The bridges are the same construction as most on the current mains which have been in use for many decades. I travel on them dailey.