NYP Penn Station South

Riverduckexpress wrote: ↑Thu Jan 09, 2020 11:09 am

Jeff Smith wrote: ↑Wed Jan 08, 2020 10:02 am I'm pretty sure any tunnel connection to MNRR is almost impossible for either utility or engineering reasons. Thus, my foam about an elevated link LOL.

The ARC Summary Report suggested it was physically feasible, but that it would require disrupting and moving around a track of the Lexington Av subway and possibly underpinning nearby buildings (along with a compatible fleet, of course). Seems like it's really just a question of how much interagency cooperation and subway/surface disruption is politically feasible today. I think Cuomo has reaffirmed that any rail project can move forward, or at least have the ball start rolling, regardless of merits or cost, if it has the right people backing it.

I doubt any Penn/GCT connection will ever come to fruition. There's just so much infrastructure to work around, most notably the deep water tunnels - but also so many subway lines. In reality, getting the Hudson tunnels and Penn South project done would be Herculean enough. Don't forget - these Penn South tracks would likely serve some MNR trains coming into Penn in the future (from the west)

Don't forget - these Penn South tracks would likely serve some MNR trains coming into Penn in the future (from the west)

That's a great point- The 3 lines that will benefit from the Secaucus Loop once the new tunnel is built (excluding Meadowlands) usually terminate in New York State, where a lot of their ridership comes from. These 3 lines (along with Raritan Valley and MoBo) will be the biggest winners from Gateway and the expanded track space. This is helpful because NYS and the MTA will have a vested interest in seeing these projects through

Riverduckexpress wrote: ↑Thu Jan 09, 2020 11:09 am
The ARC Summary Report suggested it was physically feasible, but that it would require disrupting and moving around a track of the Lexington Av subway and possibly underpinning nearby buildings (along with a compatible fleet, of course). Seems like it's really just a question of how much interagency cooperation and subway/surface disruption is politically feasible today. I think Cuomo has reaffirmed that any rail project can move forward, or at least have the ball start rolling, regardless of merits or cost, if it has the right people backing it.

Part of the issue here is that American rail engineers like to box themselves in insofar as the breadth of their changemaking purview is concerned. They just take things like a loco-hauled rail fleet incapable of ascending steeper (>3%) grades as given, rather than suggesting that involved railroads move to an EMU-dominated fleet that would allow steeper grades, and, in turn, avoidance of many (if not all) of these obstacles.

As for this Penn expansion project, it has little to no value in my opinion. These billions dollars would be an excellent down payment on the infrastructure and equipment required to implement schemes that do not scream of transportational sclerosis, for example through running, or improvements that would allow greater potential capacity in the core entrance where it is really needed: the Hudson crossing.

JamesRR wrote: ↑Thu Jan 09, 2020 11:18 am
I doubt any Penn/GCT connection will ever come to fruition. There's just so much infrastructure to work around, most notably the deep water tunnels - but also so many subway lines. In reality, getting the Hudson tunnels and Penn South project done would be Herculean enough. Don't forget - these Penn South tracks would likely serve some MNR trains coming into Penn in the future (from the west)

Finishing the PATH tunnel from 9th Street to Astor Place would solve the East Side access problems for NJ commuters for a lot cheaper and a lot less disruption (and would take strain off Penn/North River Tunnels). But since its going to take the PA 10 years to get the PATH 2 miles to Newark Airport using underutilized/abandoned properties & ROWs (i.e. far easier than tunneling), I can't see the Astor Place extension ever getting done either.

Hawaiitiki wrote: ↑Fri Jan 10, 2020 6:20 am
Finishing the PATH tunnel from 9th Street to Astor Place would solve the East Side access problems for NJ commuters for a lot cheaper and a lot less disruption (and would take strain off Penn/North River Tunnels). But since its going to take the PA 10 years to get the PATH 2 miles to Newark Airport using underutilized/abandoned properties & ROWs (i.e. far easier than tunneling), I can't see the Astor Place extension ever getting done either.

That's not really practical. PATH isn't a great alternative for NJ commuters. I regularly come in and out of NYC on NJT, and often jump onto PATH at Newark. It's very crowded (they're small subway cars) and the ride takes just as long to get to the city as is riding on a NJT train. Also, taking PATH to Astor Place then taking the already overcrowded IRT #6 uptown is a crazy route no commuter would want to take. Too cumbersome and inconvenient.

The subway platforms at Penn - particularly the 8 Ave locals - need to be enlarged and better integrated into the Penn Complex, to better facilitate commuters transferring to uptown E locals - and disembarking from them in pm rush, heading back into Penn Station.

Why not mention the new Hudson tube then? It'd be pretty big news

There always used to be, and I think still is, a passageway from the south end of the downtown local platform passing directly under the subway and opening into the Amtrak (upper) concourse right near west gate Track 16, but it was very poorly signed, and you almost had to know it was there. Better signage would make that transfer very easy.

So no serious news on second Hudson River tunnel?

No 1 project is a magic bullet here. Gateways full potential won't be realized unless capacity is added in Penn, capacity expansion in Penn won't be realized unless Gateway is done. Likewise for any projects for LIRRs benefit. Me personally I'd suggest Tracks 1-5 and Penn South get under the East River connecting to both the main line and the lower Montauk. That way, NJT & Amtrak trains coming into those tracks can access Sunnyside rather than terminating at Penn, and LIRR could get added capacity (let LIRR take over E yard). Hooking into the Lower Montauk also allows trains an alternate route to the main line, which also helps with sorting at Jamaica by eliminating merges. That's really the only way you'll see the most made out of Gateway & Penn South.

Also, are they saying the need to demo the block Penn South would be under because building foundations are in the way or is it for a headhouse? If it's for the sake of a head house, they can do plenty without demolishing the entire block. There's a parking garage that could demolished to provide sufficient access (either leave it open as a pedestrian plaza or redevelop the space above it) as well as 2 low level commercial buildings closer to 8th Av whose storefronts could provide secondary access.

Before you startup the son of ESA project,Build Gateway FIRST! and rebuild the original Tubes ,then finish ESA to GCT.
This will take forever to build out.

ESAs full benefit can be realized without having to add capacity to NYP. In fact, it's solving the problem of lack of capacity at Penn by offering a new alternative (the place where they're shooting themselves in the foot is making Brooklyn a scoot but that's a discussion for another thread).

Whatever happened to NJT's original idea of building tracks on the north side of Penn? I remember when places were being closed on 34th street, and then Gov. Christie putting the brakes on it. After that, never heard anything from the north side of Penn again.

That was part of NJT's ARC project

NJT on the north side of Penn is a horrible idea. The track layout at Penn sections things in a fairly efficient way. NJT on the north side of the station means crossing all of the LIRR tracks that access WSY in order to reach the North River Tubes.

Hate to be the voice of reason here, but things have changed just a tad. If and when things go back to "normal", both the state and the Federal governments are going to be seriously hurting for cash. We'll be lucky if the existing programs get finished. There is going to be some seriously tight budgets in the future, and some seriously painful cuts ahead in the next few years. At some point the bill is going to come due for all of this lockdown, and we'll be paying for it in a deep recession economy at first. If things continue on the political front as well, DC will not be kind to NY/NJ in terms of big capital projects, and without them anything big in Penn will be just a dream.