Northern Ontario connections (wish list)

A few things:

It would be nice to provide a better correspondence between certain trains. I know Northern Ontario best, so I'll provide two examples from this area:

Downtown Sudbury / Sudbury Jct
Via Rail's Sudbury-White River Train intersects at Sudbury (well sort of). There are two train stations in Sudbury (not counting the ones in Capreol, Azilda, Chelmsford, Cartier etc). I'll explain with this example:

Westbound Canadien arrives at Sudbury Jct: 5:13 (Wednesday, Friday & Sunday - en route vers Winnipeg)
Eastbound Canadien arrives at Sudbury Jct: 2:20 (Tuesday, Thursday & Saturday - en route vers Toronto)
Westbound 185 Train departs Downtown Sudbury: 9:00 (Tuesday, Thursday & Saturday - en route vers White River)
Eastbound 186 train arrives @ Downtown Sudbury: 18:30 (Wednesday, Friday & Sunday - from White River)

You simply extend the Budd Car to service up to the Sudbury Jct Station (the CP tracks intersect with the CN tracks somewhere in Sudbury). You could have it go to Capreol if you prefer (a much more developed train station there to accommodate more passengers while they wait. Where it becomes tricky is that the Canadien arrives at some odd times during the day (which complicates things). With that said though, the Terminus for the 185/186 train is Sudbury, so something could we worked out to accommodate passengers instead of having to resort to paying for a taxi between the two stations (which is about a 10 km drive).

Oba Intersection
The Algoma Central's service & Via Rail's Canadien intersect at Oba (near Hornepayne). The ACR services a remote area of Northern Ontario (primarily Sault Ste Marie, Searchmont, Hawk Junction, Dubreuilville & Hearst).

Westbound Canadien arrives at Oba: 13:51 (Wednesday, Friday & Sunday - en route vers Winnipeg)
Eastbound Canadien arrives at Oba: 17:50 (Monday, Wednesday & Friday - en route vers Toronto)
Northbound wintertime ACR arrives at Oba: 17:10 (Monday, Thursday & Saturday - en route vers Hearst)
Northbound summertime ACR arrives at Oba: 17:30 (Monday, Thursday & Saturday - en route vers Hearst)
Southbound wintertime ACR arrives Oba: 9:15 (Tuesday, Friday & Sunday - en route vers Sault Ste Marie)
Southbound summertime ACR arrives Oba: 9:45 (Tuesday, Friday & Sunday - en route vers Sault Ste Marie)

Yet again, the onus would be on the ACR to align it's schedule to the Canadien, but aligning these two trains together would allow for Residents of those five communities* reasonable access to the Trans-Continental Train.

*Dubreuilville, Hawk Junction, Hearst, Sault Ste Marie & Searchmont

It would also be nice if some of the rural/remote train stations in Canada were kept in much better condition. I have found that some of the stations that I have taken the train from are in rough / poor condition. Below are a few pictures I've taken of some train stops/stations that need a little T.L.C.

More from Washago

A few from Longlac (ON).

A few more from Longlac.

Hornepayne (ON)

Finally:

Chapleau, Elsas & White River (all in Northern Ontario).

I'm not sure the communities on the ACR have interest on riding the Canadian. Is there a reason they would need to get to Toronto? As for the White River service, how many people would transfer between the two trains? But if you want something done, talk to your MP or raise the issue with VIA at their AGM in April (It's webcast, but you need to submit questions in advance)

For the White River Service, there is a serious movement by the federal MP of Thunder Bay Bruce Hyer, to restore passenger rail service to Thunder Bay. People coming from Thunder Bay would utilize this service (the Buddcar) provided there was an adequate delay in between trains to continue to towards Toronto. There is also the argument for those who live along the North Shore who want to go South to Toronto (Marathon, Schreiber, Nipigon, Terrace Bay), as well as the existing communities (Chapleau & White River).

In regards to the ACR, it doesn't make much sense to go hours North to Oba from Sault Ste Marie, only to travel back South through Sudbury onto to Toronto. And there's another coalition to bring passenger service between Sault Ste Marie, Sudbury, North Bay & Ottawa. But for those going west by train (say to Winnipeg), might be an incentive? Same could be said for those who live in Dubreuilville, Hearst, Hawk Junction... I mean, there's also a correspondence transfer point at Franz (yet again though, inconvenient & unreliable).

I am composing a list of recommendations for the Via Rail AGM that I will submit. Personally, I would like to see either the ACR train continue east to Cochrane from Hearst or see the Northlander continue west to Hearst (instead of stopping at Cochrane & relying on a shuttle bus to continue west), have the Polar Bear Express extended South to Timmins (well, Timmins Junction I guess you would call it - Hallnor is the reference point on the ONR's site). I think even having Via Rail's Montréal-Senneterre train extended into Val-d'Or, Rouyn-Noranda & into Kirkland Lake so that a connection at the Swastika (ON) station with the Northlander is possible.

labaienordique wrote:For the White River Service, there is a serious movement by the federal MP of Thunder Bay Bruce Hyer, to restore passenger rail service to Thunder Bay.

You must be joking? Do you really think that a NDP MP is going to convince the Harper government to extend VIA Rail service? What's the attitude of CP? It's not going to happen.

Granted, Thunder Bay is rather isolated, and it would be a very long, unpleasant drive to Toronto in winter weather, but all the same, it just isn't realistic to reestablish passenger rail after it's been gone for 21 years.

labaienordique wrote:People coming from Thunder Bay would utilize this service (the Buddcar) provided there was an adequate delay in between trains to continue to towards Toronto. There is also the argument for those who live along the North Shore who want to go South to Toronto (Marathon, Schreiber, Nipigon, Terrace Bay), as well as the existing communities (Chapleau & White River).

Wow, it be a very long ride on a 3 day per week RDC just to take a taxi ride to connect to a 3 day per week long distance train, which might be very significantly delayed over its long route.

labaienordique wrote:In regards to the ACR, it doesn't make much sense to go hours North to Oba from Sault Ste Marie, only to travel back South through Sudbury onto to Toronto. And there's another coalition to bring passenger service between Sault Ste Marie, Sudbury, North Bay & Ottawa. But for those going west by train (say to Winnipeg), might be an incentive? Same could be said for those who live in Dubreuilville, Hearst, Hawk Junction... I mean, there's also a correspondence transfer point at Franz (yet again though, inconvenient & unreliable).

I am composing a list of recommendations for the Via Rail AGM that I will submit. Personally, I would like to see either the ACR train continue east to Cochrane from Hearst or see the Northlander continue west to Hearst (instead of stopping at Cochrane & relying on a shuttle bus to continue west), have the Polar Bear Express extended South to Timmins (well, Timmins Junction I guess you would call it - Hallnor is the reference point on the ONR's site). I think even having Via Rail's Montréal-Senneterre train extended into Val-d'Or, Rouyn-Noranda & into Kirkland Lake so that a connection at the Swastika (ON) station with the Northlander is possible.

It's really amazing how many services to small, isolated northern towns persisted into the late 80s and early 90s, although it makes sense given the lack of highways until recent decades. All of the areas in question are sparsely populated and economically stagnant. We're not talking about the Tar Sands of Alberta, but areas of Ontario and Quebec that were once centers of mineral extraction and forest products.

It's time to be realistic and admit that it isn't 1990 anymore and that the political and economic landscape has changed.

labaienordique wrote: It would also be nice if some of the rural/remote train stations in Canada were kept in much better condition. I have found that some of the stations that I have taken the train from are in rough / poor condition. Below are a few pictures I've taken of some train stops/stations that need a little T.L.C.

Actually, the stations in question appear to be in fair condition considering that they serve a 3-day per train. You can't expect any more.

With regards to the Thunder Bay project:

http://www.brucehyer.ca/?Hyer_on_the_Hi ... orth_Shore
4000 people are signed up on the facebook group: http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=92835672445

To say that re-establishing that service to the Superior City (with all the support behind it) isn't feasible while Via Rail offers a service to Saguenay (QC), a city that is equally isolated as Thunder Bay (and of similar size) seems rather hypocritical. Have you seen the price of gold lately? Have you heard about the ring of fire project? These are economic drivers that even the premier himself said will help Ontario's financial situation. These aren't negligible, we're talking about projects that have a positive impact on the local economy over the long haul.

With regards to the stations, I have noticed a significant difference between the upkeep of Northern Stations from Ontario Northland, those from Via Rail. For one, Cochrane, Englehart, Gravenhurst, Matheson, Moosonee, New Liskeard & North Bay all have passenger sales departments within the stations. Even the Algoma Central Line, tickets can be purchased at Sault Ste Marie, Hawk Junction & Hearst (granted they are EXPENSIVE). On the Via Line between Toronto & Winnipeg (which is nearly 2000 km), you can purchase tickets for the train in three place communities: Sudbury Jct, Capréol & Longlac (of which you have to go to a clothing store to purchase the ticket in Longlac).

In Longlac, everytime a freight train would pass by, the door would swing open due to the wind the train caused by it's perpetual motion. Safety hazard anyone? Floor tiles missing. The station was clean, but having never caught the train in Longlac, it took me a while to find the actual station (due to the lack of sign-age).

The station in Washago has all kinds of graffiti on the walls, and the actual structure of the shelter appears to be in poor condition (tiles missing on the roof, etc). And to top it off, there's outdated information from years ago mounted on the walls.

I just find it odd that as Canada's transcontinental service, that many of the stations are left in the condition they're in. I mean, there are many renovations underway along the 401 corridor to modernize stations. I don't believe it to be unreasonable to ask for basic services that other parts of the country receive.

labaienordique wrote:With regards to the Thunder Bay project:

http://www.brucehyer.ca/?Hyer_on_the_Hi ... orth_Shore
4000 people are signed up on the facebook group: http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=92835672445

To say that re-establishing that service to the Superior City (with all the support behind it) isn't feasible while Via Rail offers a service to Saguenay (QC), a city that is equally isolated as Thunder Bay (and of similar size) seems rather hypocritical. Have you seen the price of gold lately? Have you heard about the ring of fire project? These are economic drivers that even the premier himself said will help Ontario's financial situation. These aren't negligible, we're talking about projects that have a positive impact on the local economy over the long haul.

It's obvious that freight railroads have a "positive impact" when it comes to the extraction of natural resources, with the reestablishment of CN freight service to Fort McMurray, Alberta being a prime example. It's also worth noting that there has been no major impetus towards restoring passenger service to Fort McMurray. After all, blue collar jobs in the natural resources sector are high paying, and the sort of people who travel for such jobs don't mind driving long distances and can afford personal vehicles. It's doubtful that any oil workers in Fort McMurray would be anxious to use a one day per week mixed train, and similarly, it's hard to imagine a larger ridership from Thunder Bay just for a tree day per week Budd car.

I'm not touching any issues relating to Quebec. It's worth remembering that service cuts were made in Quebec at the same time, and after, Thunder Bay lost daily passenger rail service in 1990. So Quebec still has service to isolated northern communities, in the same way that Ontario still has service to isolated northern communities. Cuts were made in both provinces. Fair is fair.

labaienordique wrote:With regards to the stations, I have noticed a significant difference between the upkeep of Northern Stations from Ontario Northland, those from Via Rail. For one, Cochrane, Englehart, Gravenhurst, Matheson, Moosonee, New Liskeard & North Bay all have passenger sales departments within the stations. Even the Algoma Central Line, tickets can be purchased at Sault Ste Marie, Hawk Junction & Hearst (granted they are EXPENSIVE). On the Via Line between Toronto & Winnipeg (which is nearly 2000 km), you can purchase tickets for the train in three place communities: Sudbury Jct, Capréol & Longlac (of which you have to go to a clothing store to purchase the ticket in Longlac).

The Ontario Northland is a provincially funded "make work" project for Northern Ontario. It's more about providing jobs than running a modern railroad. To the credit of the Ontario Northland, they do seem to have capable car shops and a very nice, nostalgic operation, complete with old fashioned track gangs working on jointed rail. But it's all about providing employment. It's hard to imagine how much it cost the taxpayers of Ontario to provide social services, health-care, transportation and communications to places like Moosonee, where there's no obvious economic activity outside of the public sector.

As far as VIA Rail ticket agents, it doesn't make sense to staff station where there is so little ridership and negligible revenue. It's amazing that there is even a ticket agent in Longlac! Why? Because even if you combine Longlac with Nakina, Geraldton, Beardmore, Caramat, Jellicoe, Macdiarmid and Orient Bay, you still have a population of less than 5,000! In short, this is the middle of nowhere.

labaienordique wrote:The station was clean, but having never caught the train in Longlac, it took me a while to find the actual station (due to the lack of sign-age).

I can think of VIA Rail stations in major metropolitan areas where the signage is virtually non-existent. That's not unusual.

labaienordique wrote:I just find it odd that as Canada's transcontinental service, that many of the stations are left in the condition they're in.

The current Canadian/Canadien is a three-day per week remnant of the former transcontinental service. The CN route is neither as scenic or especially well located compared to the CP line, the fares are astronomical, and the trains still do quite well as far as ridership.

You can't really expect much from flagstop stations in the middle of nowhere, serving a tree-day-per week train.

labaienordique wrote: I mean, there are many renovations underway along the 401 corridor to modernize stations. I don't believe it to be unreasonable to ask for basic services that other parts of the country receive.

Yes, but the population of Ontario is mostly distributed along the 401, with the exception of Ottawa. It makes sense to invest in the corridor, which of course included Ottawa.

In contrast, the sparsely populated wilds of Ontario don't justify very much service because of the isolation and limited demographics. Granted, Thunder Bay is on the CP mainline, but as we all know, lamentable cuts were made back in 1990. There's no point in debating the past.

There are essential services, such as the Sudbury to White River Budd car, or Ontario Northland service to Moosonee. Those services remain because there are no roads in some areas, and due to the limited population and poor economic prospects, it is unlikely that roads will ever be built to some isolated areas.

So yes, the areas that need "basic service" have "basic service." I don't know where that leaves Thunder Bay. Probably the same place it's in today.

labaienordique,

I applaud you for your enthusiasm towards passenger rail transportation in Northern Ontario. It is very refreshing to see someone to take the time to come up with these ideas. All of them make sense.

However, the simple fact reamains that Northen Ontario does not have the people to support these services. Why? There simply isn't an economy to bring people to the region. My wife and I have always wanted to move up north. We can't because there aren't any jobs in either of our respective professions.

It's dissappointing to know that the north cannot support people, like us, in our thirties who are having families to raise the populations. Passenger trains require destinations that actually have people. Therefore, your plan ( I'm unhappy to say ) won't work as these trains will run with very few people or empty in some cases.

Thunder Bay remains in the same place in some respects. However, its popluation has shrunk considerably since I left in the late 90s. Therefore, it wouldn't make sense for VIA to seriously consider it.

M.

Well, I sent my letter to Via Rail so I hope there is some discussion at the meeting. Anyone know if there will be a broadcast of it on CPAC by chance?

It's obvious that we see the situation differently with regard to servicing Northern Ontario. And I mean, that's fine. Discussion is great and it's nice to see people comment on what I have said.

I'll respond with this:

There will come a point in time where Northern Ontario will split from Southern Ontario & become the 11th province. Where you draw the line remains to be seen - whether it's Parry Sound, Muskoka, or at la rivière des Français. When a collective of people are largely ignored & forgotten; when a region is under-represented provincially at the legislature (11 seats provincially, compared to 44 in Newfoundland, 55 in New Brunswick); when basic services aren't being met (potable drinking water anyone in the remote first nations?), it is inevitable that people respond in a way that helps improve their situation. You see it in different nations around the world; they go their separate ways.

It's rather discouraging to see a region as central as ours, have its ressources grown, mined, chopped & then shipped elsewhere to be manufactured into goods & products while communities struggle to stay afloat (whether it's in the forestry sector, the mining sector or even our children & people). As someone who is in their 20's, I'm tired of seeing friends relocate elsewhere when they don't want to and I want to see things change for the better.

I find it rather hypocritical that it's viable to offer this sort of service in rural Manitoba (Thompson, The Pas, Dauphin, etc - all communities with access to highways), meanwhile people in Thunder Bay (which is larger in population than all three of the mentioned cities in Manitoba) are forced to drive insane distances or fly to get around within this province. I would argue the same thing with the Prince Rupert-Jasper service, The MTL-Senneterre service & the service that connects to Gaspé from Matapédia. All of them have access to highways (the primary cities that is).

If we were in any other country in the world, I would be hard pressed to believe that a region as close as N.O. is to the capital, would see abandonment of infrastructure & reductions in service to the nation's capital.

labaienordique wrote:Well, I sent my letter to Via Rail so I hope there is some discussion at the meeting. Anyone know if there will be a broadcast of it on CPAC by chance?

I don't know, but it's supposedly being streamed online. CPAC's online schedule for this week shows pure election coverage.

labaienordique wrote: I find it rather hypocritical that it's viable to offer this sort of service in rural Manitoba (Thompson, The Pas, Dauphin, etc - all communities with access to highways), meanwhile people in Thunder Bay (which is larger in population than all three of the mentioned cities in Manitoba) are forced to drive insane distances or fly to get around within this province. I would argue the same thing with the Prince Rupert-Jasper service, The MTL-Senneterre service & the service that connects to Gaspé from Matapédia. All of them have access to highways (the primary cities that is).

I don't disagree, but the service in North Manitoba is to serve Churchill, which has no road access, an abundance of tourists and one way flights that cost a fortune. A one way flight Winnipeg-Churchill in August with advance discount: $616 ($1,037 without discount) for $8 more you can fly to Reykjavik or for $200 less you can fly to Cancun. The train on the same day is $184 in Supersaver, a bargain. Unless you pay full price for a single cabin, it's cheaper to take the train.