Northern Branch HBLR (was DMU proposal)

I could see that as an economic benefit for the state as well as an argument for additional capacity. It will be interesting to see how this pans out.

ryanov wrote:Some redundancy with light rail is good. People who can take the light rail likely will, freeing up seats for those that cannot (obviously, the bus does not exactly copy the LRT route), and at present, I bet that some who are only served by bus -- or by only one of a few buses -- wish that the short-haul riders had some other mode to choose. A good example is the 165. It's SRO on weekends, often times. If the Pascack Valley ran, a bunch of those people would be on rail, and the people who are headed off the PVL route would then have seats (and some who presently don't want to deal with the hassle might ride instead of driving).

IMHO, the second NJT pushes through the DMU stuff, you'll see a quick note that 'well, since we already run regular trains and it's gonna be FRA compliant and blah blah blah, let's just run existing equipment"

i.e., the DMU talk is just a way to get a regular commuter rail line the region doesn't want or need, built.

I seem to recall that the Tenefly extension was part of the origional 'package' NJT promised everyone when they were begging for approval on HBLRT. whatever happened to keeping promises?

I once again say... It's at least something to alleviate the situation...

running the DMU into JSQ might not be the craziest idea around. That's like a 10 or so minute ride to WTC and a direct line to 33rd street (though about 20 or so minutes). I think however that won't happen. If they were going to run the DMU south they'd run it into Hoboken.

I don't understand why a quick loop (that would avoid Secaucus) can't be built where the Northern Branch goes under the High Line. If they were really serious about running the DMU into NYP that would be the most logical thing to do, right? If you were on the DMU and wanted to stay in NJ then you would transfer at Tonelle Ave. to the HBLR, otherwise direct service into NYPS avoiding the 10 extra minutes to loop into Secaucus.

How many people riding the DMU are going to have their destination not be the NJ waterfront or NYPS? You can be adding 10 extra minutes for NYPS commuters to cater to a group that will be probably 1/50th the size.

Also if they made the lower portion of the NYS&W from Hawthorne to Hackensack a DMU instead of LRT then you wouldn't have the time conflicts with the NYS&W and could also route that the same way as the Northern Branch. Stop at Tonelle Ave for waterfront passengers and run this little loop right into NYPS/34th Street station.

On an somewhat unrelated topic what are the chances of a NYS&W DMU/LRT tranfer station with the Bergen Line? I'm not sure if that would make total sense but it would really then connect all these rail lines together.

uzplayer wrote:I once again say... It's at least something to alleviate the situation...

Sorry, but this isn't 'something', it's a very expensive 'something'. We're not talking $10 or $20 million here. We're talking an easy $500 million outlay. In a state with obscene taxes and no money to spare.

For that money, we shouldn't be talking about 'something', we should be talking about getting the best bang for the dollar.

For all the talk of going to Journal Square, why not just extend PATH, then....

Frogger wrote:running the DMU into JSQ might not be the craziest idea around

Yes it is, compared to how much cheaper it would be to run it to Hoboken, which also has a 10-minute ride to WTC and a shorter direct ride to 33rd Street via PATH. Hoboken already has platform and yard space; Journal Square does not.

I don't understand why a quick loop (that would avoid Secaucus) can't be built where the Northern Branch goes under the High Line. If they were really serious about running the DMU into NYP that would be the most logical thing to do, right?

DMUs are not allowed to run to NYP. That red herring has to be thrown out by the press.

Nasadowsk wrote:the DMU talk is just a way to get a regular commuter rail line the region doesn't want or need, built

Don't say "doesn't want or need" until you've seen eastern Bergen County.

I seem to recall that the Tenafly extension was part of the original 'package' NJT promised everyone when they were begging for approval on HBLRT

Nope. That was a more recent development. The original northern HBLRT terminus was the Vince Lombardi Park-Ride lot.

Nasadowsk, even though I'm now in Passaic, I was a lifelong Bergen resident, and with all of the developement, Bergen needs something more. Traffic is a huge problem, and the Port certainly doesn't have much more capacity that can be spared.

I've said it before, I knew perfectly well that Bergen would get shafted by the dreams of the MOS-3 to Vince Lombardi. When I saw that no money had ever been approved, or anywhere close, I knew it was going to be several lifetimes before this thing would get built to anywhere near Bergen. So I just call it what it really is, the HHLR.

I've been on many a bus that has been SRO on the weekends, and NJT has responded by adding some more expresses at peak times. So clearly, the demand is there.

ryanov, if I remember, the PVL will get weekend service sometime.

the whole "DMU to NYPS" I was referring to is of course based off the assumption they could run a DMMU / DEMU. I think everyone on this forum is well aware you can't run diesels into NYPS.

Realistically I think the Northern Branch, like many others have said, will become a regular commuter rail line. That is why I was advocating skipping Secaucus completely and do the quick look right by where the entrance to the tunnels will be.

It's certainly understandable why most of us (maybe all of us) are frustrated by the lack of progress in Bergen County. And it's very true that MOS-3 was never given official funding of any kind.

But by accident or otherwise, the patina of conversation on this thread is past tense. NJ-ARP is here to tell everyone the game isn't over yet.

Bergen County's population density can easily support LRT. Easily. That's even allowing for the insistent silliness some perpetuate that one must advocate LRT (or any rail mode, for that matter) by a "top-down" laundry list, which NJ-ARP rejects. (See the River Line.) Bergen County has far more people per square mile than many existing -- and successful -- light rail operations in the United States.

To be fair, NJ-ARP gets the distinct sense New Jersey Transit's DMU proposal is a full-service option -- seven days a week, and off-peak service in both directions during the weekday. It does not seem to be applying an incremental and/or "stealth" approach to rail service in the Northern Valley. Given NJT's record of timidity and/or inaction in Bergen County, the corporation should be commended for this at least (and we do so).

Douglas John Bowen wrote:Given NJT's record of timidity and/or inaction in Bergen County, the corporation should be commended for this at least (and we do so).

Bergenities are extremely autocentric and complacent with the status quo. I get a strong impression rail is welcomed with open arms in communities along the Gladstone Branch and Morristown Line. Very different mindset [in both households and the localities at large] on the Lackawanna side vs. Erie.

I lived in Bergen County for 23 years and in some ways I agree about
the autocentric observation ,but I still use the Bergen County and Main Lines often when I'm in NJ ,which is 3 or 4 times a year and I'm pretty impressed with the way patronage has grown on those lines in the last 10 years.
When I resided there was no Sunday service and only a handful of trains
on Saturdays,which for the longest time was no later than 7PM.
I'll generally ride a later train back to Hoboken and more often than
there are more than just a few people on board.Keep in mind though
this is a one seat ride to connect with PATH.
My point is were this a straight run into Hoboken itself I think it would do well from the get-go.With the added transfers I don't know that it will
justify the investment.I don't think commuters or daytrippers will take it on a regular basis.

Considering the population density of Bergen County approaches that of a city anyway, I can see a 7 day/week service working there. However, to have an effective county wide rail-based system, you need to have all the rail lines connect. In theory, it could work.

Douglas John Bowen wrote:It's certainly understandable why most of us (maybe all of us) are frustrated by the lack of progress in Bergen County. And it's very true that MOS-3 was never given official funding of any kind.

But by accident or otherwise, the patina of conversation on this thread is past tense. NJ-ARP is here to tell everyone the game isn't over yet.

Bergen County's population density can easily support LRT. Easily. That's even allowing for the insistent silliness some perpetuate that one must advocate LRT (or any rail mode, for that matter) by a "top-down" laundry list, which NJ-ARP rejects. (See the River Line.) Bergen County has far more people per square mile than many existing -- and successful -- light rail operations in the United States.

To be fair, NJ-ARP gets the distinct sense New Jersey Transit's DMU proposal is a full-service option -- seven days a week, and off-peak service in both directions during the weekday. It does not seem to be applying an incremental and/or "stealth" approach to rail service in the Northern Valley. Given NJT's record of timidity and/or inaction in Bergen County, the corporation should be commended for this at least (and we do so).

Uzplayer raises a valid point for Bergen County that actually transcends the Northern Branch debate to a large degree: the issue of intracounty rail connectivity.

No plan for the Northern Branch can tackle that by itself. In fact, such county connectivity would/will be better addressed, at least in part, by any Cross-County rail line linking Hawthorne (Paterson?) with Hackensack, with potential transfers to all three (3) existing rail passenger services covering Bergen County and nearby points.

NJ-ARP supports DMU for this application, as it happens, and we were instrumental in bringing the Colorado Railcar DMU prototype to Bergen County, and having it displayed (and run!) on NYS&W trackage, for such a purpose.

Notwithstanding this very real need, the Northern Branch's fate in large measure is tied to points outside Bergen County. Part of the debate is identifying which such points are more useful and/or advantageous. And, again, on that matter, NJ-ARP thinks the issue is fairly clear.

Correct me.. But if i'm not mistaken, isnt the majority of proposed stops on the Northern Branch in Bergen County?

The clear majority of stops on any rail extension up the Northern Branch would be in Bergen County. In fact, save for 50th Street North Bergen or vicinity, in Hudson County, it's possible that all the stops would be so situated.

But the Northern Branch, by itself, won't adequately address intracounty travel for an overwhelming portion of Bergen County. Sure, communities along the line get linked up -- and that's good. (We'd argue that, in fact, such an emphasis favors LRT.) But the focus of connectivity is somewhat larger in scope, whether one advocates DMU or backs LRT as the preferred modal choice.

To repeat: The Northern Branch's fate in large measure is tied to points outside Bergen County.