• North-South Rail Link Discussion

  • Discussion relating to commuter rail, light rail, and subway operations of the MBTA.
Discussion relating to commuter rail, light rail, and subway operations of the MBTA.

Moderators: sery2831, CRail

  by F-line to Dudley via Park
 
Gerry6309 wrote:
highgreen215 wrote:It was my understanding that when the Big Dig was constructed the vertical supports were sunk much further down than required for the vehicle tunnel. It was said this was done to accommodate a possible North-South rail tunnel directly beneath the vehicle tunnels. It would seem, then, that except for the inclines at either end, the route of the NSRL has essentially been determined all ready and this portion of the basic engineering and construction has already been funded through the Big Dig. So why waste that effort if it gives us a head start to providing superior rail service through Boston by connecting the northern suburbs and cities as far as Portland and beyond (and eventually New Hampshire, Vermont and Montreal) with EVERYTHING south of Boston.
Here is another way to utilize that earlier effort: Put a subway down there with a yard and shop at the Charlestown end. Use the existing fare controls at South and North Stations, with a passageway between the highway and the rail tunnels to access an island platform via stairs and escalators. At the North Station end a 5% ramp to the surface and an extension to the Monsanto memorial casino by way of the old RT line between Sullivan and Everett. That issue will need to be addressed in any event, assuming that the casino ever gets built itself.

It would be a Boston version of London's Waterloo And City Line.
You could theoretically do both RR and rapid transit since the space under I-93 is set up for 2 bores of 2 tracks each. Setting aside fact that feasibility hasn't been studied, here's some brainfood for thought. . .


On the RR mode:

-- RR Link would go from 4 tracks to 2, but they'd be in the same bore so unlike the pair of North River single-track tubes from Penn Station this would have more flexible redundancy in the form of frequent crossovers despite the capacity reduction.

-- Probably would need to cut Central Station, but Central Station was a dodgy prospect to begin with.

-- Routings through the tunnel would be a little more strictly rationed to the NEC<-->NH Main, B&A<-->Eastern Route primaries that would carry the bulk of the traffic and hit all the regional intercity destinations. Fitchburg, Franklin, Fairmount, Old Colony would probably be rationed a lot more miserly for tunnel slots, and branchlines would probably stay exclusively on-surface unless a particularly high-demand pairing merited some token tunnel slots. Keep in mind based on what Penn handles that 2 tunnel tracks is still a hell of a lot of new capacity and the frequency surge in being able to pick-and-choose tunnel vs. expanded surface terminals still affords mind-boggling service increases.

-- You would probably need to move aggressively to convert the Needham Line to an Orange extension Forest Hills-West Roxbury and Green extension Newton Highlands-Needham Junction. And to finish the Orange-Reading extension with thru Haverhill trains going back to the NH Main. It'll be a lot easier to portion out tunnel slots to the higher-capacity mainlines by expunging these two capacity-pinched lines entirely from the commuter rail system and over to rapid transit where they should've been all along.


On the rapid transit mode:

-- 2 tracks in the other bore on the other side of the wall from the RR bore. Do a low-profile "Aquarium Under" island platform on the HRT side, and plop the North Station platforms on top of the Orange level so both floors are mirror images of each other.

-- Easiest available rapid transit hookup would be the Red Line Cabot Yard leads where Columbia Jct. can act as a grade-separated "X" for pairing off and mixing 2 north/subway branches and the existing southern branches all at equal capacity. You could run Alewife-Braintree, North Station-Ashmont, Alewife-Ashmont, North Station-Braintree switching off every other run, and have the current branches bump up to frequencies equal to the present subway mainline because of Columbia Jct.'s grade separation. Huge capacity increase. I think this is cheaper, easier construction, and higher-upside than taking a branch off Orange or something that could conceivably harm downtown headways.

-- I guess you could portal-under into the Link approach tunnel right before the Cabot leads fan out into the yard, right around the South Boston Haul Road overpass. Maybe even incorporate a "Broadway Upper" station by re-using some of the Red-dimension trolley tunnel before going off-alignment into a Link-approach tunnel on the Foundry St. end. Seeing as how Broadway is a potential Urban Ring stop it might be a good idea to have both downtown subways on the "X" hit that one on separate floors along with SS while the North Station route skips over Andrew on its surface alignment.

-- Incline into the depths of the Link tunnel can be much steeper and sharper at HRT grades, so it may be cost-neutral or slightly less expensive to do a 2-track RR incline and 2-track HRT incline instead of a double-wide RR incline. Tasty enough to maybe be worth a future study if little else.

-- Double-up the Orange Charlestown portal and pick one side of the Orange tracks to spit out on that leaves the most utility intact for a future line extension. Stub-end yard on the surface, tucked alongside the Orange main wherever it'll fit. Probably don't need anything more elaborate than an Alewife Yard-style 3-tracker on compact footprint.

-- If costs need to be shaved from the RR Link, doing the rapid transit half gives all Old Colony riders FOUR transfer stops to get on a Red train signed for North Station: Braintree, Quincy Ctr., JFK, or South Station. You could cut the OC portal entirely from the RR build and make them use these staggered Red transfers. Middleboro to Hyannis would still be accessible through the tunnel by the Stoughton main to Taunton and the Middleboro Secondary to Middleboro, so only Greenbush, Plymouth, and Holbrook/Randolph-to-Bridgewater riders would be inconvenienced by a two-seater to get north. Would punish Fairmount riders a little unfairly since they'd also have to transfer at SS to get north, but I guess you could make that a little more worth their while if Red went all the way to Mattapan down the street from Blue Hill Ave. station and more or less framed each end of Dorchester.

-- Future northward extension possibilities can literally go anywhere. Any of the northside mainlines would be accessible from that stub-end yard with the right combo of duck-unders of commuter rail tracks. If you think GLX-Medford has enough 30-year ridership growth in it to fill 6-car heavy rail trains...all it would take is a duck-under and running along the south property line of BET to absorb that branch. Trolleys would continue going to Union Sq. and would have the freed-up slack capacity to take on Urban Ring LRT traffic off the Grand Junction and from Chelsea. You could sit on that stub and debate accordingly for years where it's best to go next, because it enables going anywhere next.



And if that's too much to swallow...you don't have to build both bores of the Link at once. It can be 2 RR tracks to start and an empty concrete shell on the other side of the wall that gets finished when Tracks 3 and 4 are added or when they study whether +2 RR tracks or 2 HRT tracks are the better use for the space.
  by Arlington
 
I think Red+CR is the way to go. I would do Red stations at all of:
North Station
Aquarium/Quincy Market
Rowes Wharf/Northern Ave (Ferries & Seaport)
South Station

And F-Line is right: 2 CR-Amtrak tracks is plenty, particularly if the other two are Red Line that could later go to Union/Porter or Somerville/Woburn (or, my nomination: tunnel NS-Constitution-Chelsea- and run surface routes to Lynn)
  by YamaOfParadise
 
Arlington wrote:I think Red+CR is the way to go. I would do Red stations at all of:
North Station
Aquarium/Quincy Market
Rowes Wharf/Northern Ave (Ferries & Seaport)
South Station

And F-Line is right: 2 CR-Amtrak tracks is plenty, particularly if the other two are Red Line that could later go to Union/Porter or Somerville/Woburn (or, my nomination: tunnel NS-Constitution-Chelsea- and run surface routes to Lynn)
And going to Aquarium would allow the long-needed interchange between the Red and Blue lines. If memory serves me right, the MBTA is legally obligated to extend the the Blue Line out to Charles-MGH... doing CR+Red would be a much better use of what would cost a giant pile of money either way.
  by deathtopumpkins
 
YamaOfParadise wrote:
Arlington wrote:I think Red+CR is the way to go. I would do Red stations at all of:
North Station
Aquarium/Quincy Market
Rowes Wharf/Northern Ave (Ferries & Seaport)
South Station

And F-Line is right: 2 CR-Amtrak tracks is plenty, particularly if the other two are Red Line that could later go to Union/Porter or Somerville/Woburn (or, my nomination: tunnel NS-Constitution-Chelsea- and run surface routes to Lynn)
And going to Aquarium would allow the long-needed interchange between the Red and Blue lines. If memory serves me right, the MBTA is legally obligated to extend the the Blue Line out to Charles-MGH... doing CR+Red would be a much better use of what would cost a giant pile of money either way.
This wouldn't solve the red/blue connector problem though, as the main reason that is needed isn't for people to get from the blue line to destinations south, but rather to go north, to places like Kendall Square.
  by Arlington
 
It'd also get pretty funky if the Red got sent out from NS to Union-Porter-Alewife.
  by djlong
 
I have the original article describing this project from the Boston Globe back in the 1980s saved in a notebook somewhere - I'll have to dig it out. The article had a map of how the lines would be paired up for 'run through' operations. Even back then, they showed the not-yet-under--reconstruction Old Colony lines - all of which would terminate at South Station (presumably because the portals on the south side were for the NEC and either the Fairmont or Framingham/Worcester lines.

Central Station WAS listed as an option. The price tag was somewhere in the $1B-$2B range. Electrification was also mentioned.

This wouldn't be like the Big Dig in the sense that you wouldn't have the kind of surface disruption (building a huge highway under a crumbling one) that you had and there wouldn't be nearly the blackmail and extortion, oh, I'm sorry, "mitigation" that blew up the costs of the Dig. In addition, you wouldn't have to invent whole new construction techniques like they had to do for the Fort Point Channel Tunnel (freezing the ground).

At the end of the project, you don't have to expand South and North Stations. You have run-through trains so that people from the north shore and New Hampshire can EASILY get to their jobs in the financial district. To me, the real budget-busting expenses would be digging out "South Station Under Under" and "North Station Under". Take the numbers from when Amtrak electrified the NEC from New Haven to Boston and see how much electrification of Boston's CR lines would cost. And for heaven's sake, offer the contracts to the French, Swiss, English and Chinese who can, apparently, do the job for BILLIONS less while still paying their workers good salaries.
  by F-line to Dudley via Park
 
djlong wrote:I have the original article describing this project from the Boston Globe back in the 1980s saved in a notebook somewhere - I'll have to dig it out. The article had a map of how the lines would be paired up for 'run through' operations. Even back then, they showed the not-yet-under--reconstruction Old Colony lines - all of which would terminate at South Station (presumably because the portals on the south side were for the NEC and either the Fairmont or Framingham/Worcester lines.
Interesting...Fairmount but not OC? The way that approach tunnel build is depicted now is that the primary bores are 1 for NEC/Worcester and 1 for OC/Fairmount, with the actual split into separate OC and Fairmount portals happening at very shallow depth with tracks popping to the surface on opposite sides of the Amtrak maint facility @ Southampton. Similar to how Fitchburg forks at very shallow depth with the separate Fitchburg and NH Main+Eastern+Western portals flanking separate sides of BET. So if you build a tunnel for one of the OC/Fairmount pair, you've built 90% of the tunneling for the other and might as well just finish the job.
Central Station WAS listed as an option. The price tag was somewhere in the $1B-$2B range. Electrification was also mentioned.

This wouldn't be like the Big Dig in the sense that you wouldn't have the kind of surface disruption (building a huge highway under a crumbling one) that you had and there wouldn't be nearly the blackmail and extortion, oh, I'm sorry, "mitigation" that blew up the costs of the Dig. In addition, you wouldn't have to invent whole new construction techniques like they had to do for the Fort Point Channel Tunnel (freezing the ground).

At the end of the project, you don't have to expand South and North Stations. You have run-through trains so that people from the north shore and New Hampshire can EASILY get to their jobs in the financial district. To me, the real budget-busting expenses would be digging out "South Station Under Under" and "North Station Under". Take the numbers from when Amtrak electrified the NEC from New Haven to Boston and see how much electrification of Boston's CR lines would cost. And for heaven's sake, offer the contracts to the French, Swiss, English and Chinese who can, apparently, do the job for BILLIONS less while still paying their workers good salaries.
Re: electrification...the later study seemed to be a little too enamored of dual-modes and only called for new electrification out to Route 128. Like, the NH Main would only be wired to Anderson and we'd have a big honking fleet of ALP-45DP's or something power-switching on the fly to get everywhere else. That seemed a little flawed. Those tunnel grades are so steep that it's going to perform like a dog if everything is a big heavy dual-mode pulling the same six-pack of bi-levels as today. While duals eliminate the need to electrify everything, some prioritization is in order with the highest-frequency mainlines needing end-to-end electrification and real EMU's that can climb a tunnel grade at >5 MPH. Providence, Worcester, Lowell/Nashua for sure. The major Indigo Line routes--Fairmount, etc.--for sure. Eastern Route main out to Salem/Beverly for sure. Something that balances tunnel traffic at something like 60-40 EMU's vs. push-pulls to mitigate the performance penalty.

-- Figure the branchlines are secondary priority for wiring since those are going to be the biggest-share users of the surface terminals.
-- Figure some lines--South Coast (at least past Taunton), Cape, Greenbush, Plymouth--will simply never merit enough TPH for wires.
-- Figure tight double-stack freight clearances may make wires on the outer Fitchburg and outer Haverhill Lines rough going, kicking them near the back of the pile (Worcester not a problem since there's only 6 overhead bridges in DS territory).
-- Figure the only electrification that matters on Needham and the inner Western Route is rapid transit 600v DC.
-- Amtrak is always going to be push-pull, and will have its own dual-modes to handle the Downeaster and Inland Route.

That's not too bad. That's a minority of your total fleet requirements, and given that these are the lower-priority tunnel users you'd only need a small fleet of dual-mode locos and a small % of the tunnel slots taken up by those lumbering beasts. So it's a decided majority of MBTA EMU's pairing out the highest-traffic mainlines, and then the push-pulls apportioned judiciously to all manner of Amtrak traffic and the second-priority and/or infeasible electrifications. Not sure why these studies have to swing wildly in one direction (electrify ALL THE THINGS!) or another (electrify NONE OF THE THINGS because dual-modes are the future!). Hell...if they do the sensible thing and electrify Worcester and Fairmount way, way sooner and pool-fleet those up with EMU's for Providence and RIDOT intrastate CR it basically just becomes the Lowell Line and inner Eastern Route as northside electrification prerequisites they have to do in advance of starter service through the tunnel. And that's a pretty reasonable set of to-do's.
  by BandA
 
Or end electrification at north station for the first decade or so.
  by Arlington
 
BandA wrote:Or end electrification at north station for the first decade or so.
If you'd have to build and electrify a whole bunch of yards to manage all this, and Amtrak's going to find itself parking/swapping Downeaster/Inland engines there, It still makes more sense to do that in Woburn (which would allow Amtrak to sell its prime-but-cramped land in Boston and buy cheap-and-plentiful land in Woburn and move everything (Acela II + NERegional) there too)
  by harshaw
 
Arlington wrote:If you'd have to build and electrify a whole bunch of yards to manage all this, and Amtrak's going to find itself parking/swapping Downeaster/Inland engines there, It still makes more sense to do that in Woburn (which would allow Amtrak to sell its prime-but-cramped land in Boston and buy cheap-and-plentiful land in Woburn and move everything (Acela II + NERegional) there too)
Interesting. maybe that's how this could be sold. Combine the NS-rail link with getting rid of yards in the Widett circle area. This would enable some of the development outlined in the olympic bid at a lower cost. I guess this means you wouldn't need the Post Office land. However, as a Bostonian I would really like to see the Post office go and see some better use of that space.
  by YamaOfParadise
 
harshaw wrote:
Arlington wrote:If you'd have to build and electrify a whole bunch of yards to manage all this, and Amtrak's going to find itself parking/swapping Downeaster/Inland engines there, It still makes more sense to do that in Woburn (which would allow Amtrak to sell its prime-but-cramped land in Boston and buy cheap-and-plentiful land in Woburn and move everything (Acela II + NERegional) there too)
Interesting. maybe that's how this could be sold. Combine the NS-rail link with getting rid of yards in the Widett circle area. This would enable some of the development outlined in the olympic bid at a lower cost. I guess this means you wouldn't need the Post Office land. However, as a Bostonian I would really like to see the Post office go and see some better use of that space.
Even outside of the obvious use of reclaiming the land in the Postal Annex for South Station, the City of Boston itself wants to redevelop Dorchester Avenue through the annex into something like a boardwalk; so there's at least multiple parties interested in moving the facility. The big reason it's been years with no progress is that the Postal Service is unmoving in their demands that they will be incurred no monetary cost for the move, which while completely understandable, is still a huge burden for Boston and the MBTA to deal with. The upside of expanding the number of surface tracks is that at least it gives South Station some breathing room in the intermediary period of the tunnel being constructed and before a sufficient number of lines on the south end are electrified.
  by BandA
 
Arlington wrote:
BandA wrote:Or end electrification at north station for the first decade or so.
If you'd have to build and electrify a whole bunch of yards to manage all this, and Amtrak's going to find itself parking/swapping Downeaster/Inland engines there, It still makes more sense to do that in Woburn (which would allow Amtrak to sell its prime-but-cramped land in Boston and buy cheap-and-plentiful land in Woburn and move everything (Acela II + NERegional) there too)
Under any scenario, MBTA and/or Amtrak need as much storage and ancillary space near south station as they can get. Too much space has been sold off.
  by Cosmo
 
Ok,... seems like everybody's missing the 800 lb gorilla in the room which is: "What about the NORTH side approaches?"
The South side, it's approaches and options have been discussed to DEATH.
Anny tunnel to North Station would have to start dropping way out in Somerville and probably go directly under BET, and in doing so, would limit it's own access to many of the lines North of there. It would be incredibly daunting and expensive to connect more than a couple of the Northside lines into such a tunnle, especially when you consider it has to drop below a navigable channel to enter North Station (or N. S. Under.)
  by F-line to Dudley via Park
 
Cosmo wrote:Ok,... seems like everybody's missing the 800 lb gorilla in the room which is: "What about the NORTH side approaches?"
The South side, it's approaches and options have been discussed to DEATH.
Anny tunnel to North Station would have to start dropping way out in Somerville and probably go directly under BET, and in doing so, would limit it's own access to many of the lines North of there. It would be incredibly daunting and expensive to connect more than a couple of the Northside lines into such a tunnle, especially when you consider it has to drop below a navigable channel to enter North Station (or N. S. Under.)
No...the northside approach is actually very straightforward compared to southside. That's why it isn't talked about as much.

Tunnel stays under 93 and gradually ascends to shallower depth where 93 portals to the surface. Then it peels out directly underneath the surface on-ramp from Storrow Drive to 93 South to angle under the Orange Line tunnel and around the northeast corner of the Garden. NS Under ends up straddling that ramp footprint and the tip of the easterly surface platforms. Then crosses under the Charles immediately adjacent to the easterly drawbridge at same shallow depth as the 1975-construction Orange Line tunnel. "New" Charles Dam is an entirely artificial shallow channel, so this will be a non-event like the OL was 40 years ago. There'd be a very shallow-depth tunnel split on the last 1000 feet, and then the portals would be. . .

1) Fitchburg Line at southeastern tip of BET property roughly where the current mainline tracks make their little S-curve around the service driveway. Property claimed would be little more than the tie pile that's currently there.

2) NH Main / Eastern / Western portal would pop up on the stretch between the first 2 billboards on the easterly side of BET, in between the NH Main and Eastern/Western lead tracks so tunnel trains can very quickly switch at a new interlocking onto either before the NH Main inclines up onto the embankment. Only space claimed while shifting things around would be that little stub dead line track where work loco 902 was parked all those years. Most of that area is a slab of empty space today.


BET access into the tunnel might be constrained to just the Fitchburg portal depending on how tight a fit everything is, but it wouldn't wreak as much havoc on the facility as GLX currently is.
  by Rockingham Racer
 
It's been reported that former Governors Dukakis and Weld are going to meet with Governor Baker to "push" the concept of the N-S link. As we know, though, talk is cheap!
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