New Locomotives for GO Transit

According to a story published in the May 13th edition of The Toronto Star, GO Transit wants to replace their entire fleet of 45 F59PH locomotives with 53 new ones over the next few years at a cost of almost $3 million. GO cites the age of the fleet as the main reason for doing this but also says it wants to run longer (12-car) trains which now requires two units.

I might buy the need to have a number of higher horsepower units to run some longer trains, but I don't accept the argument that the current F59's, at 10-16 years, are getting too old. With a major overhaul or rebuild these locomotives could get another 15-20 years of useful service for far less than the cost of replacing them with new ones.

That sounds rather absurd. New Jersey Transit is still running a large fleet of GP40 locomotives that date between 1965 and 1969. F59PHs are not buses, they are heavy-duty locomotives—buses generally need to be replaced every 15 years, but locomotives should be long-lasting even with two rebuilds.

No single passenger diesel locomotive can pull 12-car trains. If GO wants to do that, then perhaps they can use a re-geared freight locomotive—after all, their top speed is not too high above 80 mph, correct?

The news article cited a slew of problems which are preventable with a regular maintenance cycle—cracked engine mountings and crankshafts, rusted-out and warped piston rods? Sounds like GO likes to beat up its equipment. Do they still have F7 cabbages? Re-engine those for their 12-car push-pull trains...certainly shows that GO had no problem beating up their F59PHs pulling around the dead weight of the F7s.

This is why you should never believe 100% of what you hear in the media. The reason why GO needs new units is not because of the age or problems with pistons or anything like that. In fact the prime movers both main and HEP have been as reliable as anyone could ever hope for. The problem with these units has to do with the fact that the f59 is or (was) a prototype unit for GO. Most of the problems facing these units stem from this fact and continue to be dealt with on a daily basis. The f59 is a somewhat tempermental unit by design and face problems that other units do not have. Mechanically they are very good given the fact that they are somewhat underpowered for the service they provide, electrically they could be better especially when it comes to HEP system. The new units will (hopefully) benefit from the experiences learned from the f59's, and this is part what GO needs to allow the service grow.

Prototype? Just what was necessarily "prototypical" about the F59PH, I'd like to know. GO isn't the only agency that uses them, after all—Trinity Railway Express in Dallas, TX and Metrolink in Los Angeles, CA also uses them. The "starship" F59PHI was directly derived from it, which even Amtrak uses on its western routes. What was so different from the F59PH and other locomotives like the F40PH and GP40 (from which, I understand, both F40PH and F59PH were ultimately derived anyway)?

No, sounds to me like GO beat these things harder than they ought to have been beaten. Either that or they truly were GO's version of the ill-fated SDP40F, which seems unlikely even in a B-B locomotive that came out of any location of EMD. GO does indeed run long trains nowadays, and it seems that they may have forced their F59PHs to exceed their capabilities.

Not to mention, what locomotives are out there that could possibly be "better" in any way? The MP36PH-3S? That's an engine that is already close to the weight limits for four axles and really ought to ride on A1A-A1A trucks. The Genesis series from GE? Unless things have changed, they would not be commuter-schedule friendly, even with a GEVO. NJ Transit's PL42AC is a one-off that won't be repeated...there aren't too many choices out there anymore. GO should have been easier on their current fleet.

In "prototype" I meant these locomotives were designed (first) for GO transit to there original specifications. Yes I agree there is no new technology here but at the time of there introduction nobody else I belive was using a 710-12 engine in a passenger service. A 12 cylinder engine producing as much hp as a 645-16 engine was a bit too much for the crankshafts could handle as most of them developed cracks and a few actually broke. Every cylinder on 710-12 is worth about 250hp while on a 645-16 its about 190hp so one bad injector on a 710-12 you get delays on a 10 car consist. The placement of electrical cabinets for the HEP system, ever been in the long hood of a GO unit in high summer?- gets pretty hot in there and electrical/electronics do not like hot. Look at an F40 most of the HEP controls are up front in the main electrical cabinet in the cab. Or the cooling air intake for the HEP generator which is at the back of the unit. The inertial filter has a hard time keeping snow/moisture out of the gen when the snow is fine and the weather is very cold causing the gen to fail. Most failures occur during the midsummer and midwinter, remember Dallas and LA engines also do not suffer southern Ontario's winters.

OK, thanks for clarification.

Just seems to me to be rather incompetent to bet the farm on a "prototypical" design like the F59PH was originally. Not to mention, EMD has plenty of winter experience up in Canada, so they should not have permitted the Canadian engines to get to the point where they were falling apart...

Its a little harsh to say claim incompetence.....For what its worth GM supplied a "good" locomotive. Maybe not the best they have ever done-but then again there business is not about passenger engines. Most of the issues with these units have been resolved but this does not change the fact that GO continues to expand and they simply need a more powerful unit to permit this. I predict even when these new engines arrive(?) the F59 will still have a role to play at GO. (Just an opinion)

Hmm...now you've got me thinking. What's the usual top speed for a GO commuter train nowadays? If it's in the 70-75 mph range, perhaps they ought to go with the SD70MAC-HEP that Alaska Railroad has just acquired...? Something like that could certainly push-pull a 12-car train with ease and with rapid acceleration.

Currently the fleet is limited at 83 with present gearing,- a modified sd70mac with a HEP package would most likely work best. Unfortunately the current diesel repair shop at Willowbrook is quite tiny and space is always big headache, for example a VIA P42 barely fits on the traction motor drop table. From what I have heard AC traction motors teamed up with high tech bogies can develop enormous amounts of track adhesion so I don't expect they will need a six axle unit if a four will do the job. So hopefully GM can pull off a modifed SD70mac with an emdec controlled 710-16 and hopefully a better HEP package that does actually work properly and is not more or less like an engineering afterthought .

Express trains run at 130 km/h. It's neat riding these trains after a heavy snowfall. It feels like the train is floating on air.

I think this link will be most helpful.

Matthew

Remember, too, that these units are required to perform frequent stops and starts, moreso than mainline freights, with trains that can vary quite dramatically in weight. A full train will be many tons heavier than an empty one and if the 59s are already being pushed to the limit, that weight factor can make a difference. I would guess that the mechanical stress on these units is quite significant.

Ori
va3ori - va3xw

The Province of Ontario has announced funding for the purchase of 27 new locomotives to be delivered in 2007. These will replace 16 of GO's current F59PH locomotives and increase the size of GO's fleet from 45 to 56. The news release is at Ministry of Transportation - Ontario.

No announcement has been made regarding an order or what the manufacturer and model will be, but the buzz is they will be a variation on the MP36PH from MotivePower Industries.

They could buy P42s…

Remember, GO is in Canada; locomotives built for Canada do not need to comply with EPA emissions regulations or FRA crash regulations.

The last P42s built were built for VIA after the new FRA regs came into effect…

That said, I don't see the P42 being a very good commuter locomotive.

Motive Power's parent company, Wabtec Corp., has announced a contract with GO Transit to build 27 locomotives for $112 million with an option for 26 more at $105 million.

The press release can be seen at Wabtec Press Release (note: .pdf file, Adobe Acrobat Reader required)