My kingdom for an MU!!!

Well, it happened!! I finally caught an Arrow III Mu as I was stopped in Mt. Tabor on the way to work for the early shift today. Train #604 the 5:06 am to Hoboken was a 4-car set. First time I have seen an MU on the Morristown line in almost a year!

Maybe NJT finally realized that with $5 gas prices, it might not be a bad idea to utilize those wires they have extended from Dover all the way to Hoboken. Only took them about 8 months.

blockline4180 wrote:Well, it happened!! I finally caught an Arrow III Mu as I was stopped in Mt. Tabor on the way to work for the early shift today. Train #604 the 5:06 am to Hoboken was a 4-car set. First time I have seen an MU on the Morristown line in almost a year!

I caught one at Denville last April, but they are rare on the Morristown these days. There are a few peak ALP-44 hauled trains to Hoboken, usually 6 or 7 cars long. I always note the first AM one, a 7 car set which arrives in the Oranges just before 7 AM. 7 cars, 2 closed! These trains should be 4-6-7 car Arrow III consists all the time, put the push-pulls on the NEC.

SecaucusJunction wrote:Maybe NJT finally realized that with $5 gas prices, it might not be a bad idea to utilize those wires they have extended from Dover all the way to Hoboken. Only took them about 8 months.

I finally got a reasonable answer as to why most of the Dover/Hoboken trains are diesels, despite the ability to use catenary power for their entire routes. Dover yard is too small to handle both trains that run to Manhattan and Dover, so the Hoboken trains are mostly based out of Port Morris. MU's can't get to/from that yard, so diesels must be used. NJT should consider extending the wire through Mount Arlington and electrifying Port Morris yard.

Port Jervis wrote: I finally got a reasonable answer as to why most of the Dover/Hoboken trains are diesels, despite the ability to use catenary power for their entire routes. Dover yard is too small to handle both trains that run to Manhattan and Dover, so the Hoboken trains are mostly based out of Port Morris. MU's can't get to/from that yard, so diesels must be used. NJT should consider extending the wire through Mount Arlington and electrifying Port Morris yard.

I believe extending the wire to Mount Arlington has been an option on the table for several years now...

Another thing to consider is possibly making Hoboken(electric sets only) trains terminate in Morristown and resurect the Morristown yard that was recently vacated by URHS. Of course they would have to string the wires back up in there as well.... Also, why isn't Summit yard utilized to its full potential anymore??

They need the push-pulls for the NJCL and Midtown direct trains, considering that they are the only ones that can jump from 12.5 to 25k (which is south of matawan on the coast line) and the Midtown trains, there's the phase gap before Broad st.

hockeyman wrote:They need the push-pulls for the NJCL and Midtown direct trains, considering that they are the only ones that can jump from 12.5 to 25k (which is south of matawan on the coast line) and the Midtown trains, there's the phase gap before Broad st.

Almost half of all M&E trains are Midtown Direct and that rises to about 75% on the Morristown Line. However, you're forgetting that Arrow IIIs are normally designated for Newark or Hoboken Division use because of that voltage problem (I forget the voltage switch mechanism on the Arrow III, but it's a pain in the ass if I remember correctly so they don't bother most of the time, but they can change voltages just not on-the-fly) so the M&E isn't going to get as many Arrows as it needs. Adding to that is the fact that the Gladstone Branch is almost always Arrow III-driven (apart from the Midtown Direct trains), so what do you expect the Morristown Line to use?

geoking66 wrote:

hockeyman wrote:They need the push-pulls for the NJCL and Midtown direct trains, considering that they are the only ones that can jump from 12.5 to 25k (which is south of matawan on the coast line) and the Midtown trains, there's the phase gap before Broad st.

Almost half of all M&E trains are Midtown Direct and that rises to about 75% on the Morristown Line. However, you're forgetting that Arrow IIIs are normally designated for Newark or Hoboken Division use because of that voltage problem (I forget the voltage switch mechanism on the Arrow III, but it's a pain in the ass if I remember correctly so they don't bother most of the time, but they can change voltages just not on-the-fly) so the M&E isn't going to get as many Arrows as it needs. Adding to that is the fact that the Gladstone Branch is almost always Arrow III-driven (apart from the Midtown Direct trains), so what do you expect the Morristown Line to use?

It's absurd to use ALP-44 powered consists on a Morristown Hoboken run. It's equally absurd to use Arrow III's on an NEC express.

It's absurd to use ALP-44 powered consists on a Morristown Hoboken run. It's equally absurd to use Arrow III's on an NEC express.

I agree. Not only are voltage issues a factor, but the M&E needs the faster acceleration that MU's provide for the local stations in Essex County and then climbing the hills in the Morris section.

The NEC is better suited for push-pull operation since there is more distance between the stations and the terrain is relatively flat.

Why, then do we see more of the Arrows going on the NEC then ever before?

Port Jervis wrote:

geoking66 wrote:

hockeyman wrote:They need the push-pulls for the NJCL and Midtown direct trains, considering that they are the only ones that can jump from 12.5 to 25k (which is south of matawan on the coast line) and the Midtown trains, there's the phase gap before Broad st.

Almost half of all M&E trains are Midtown Direct and that rises to about 75% on the Morristown Line. However, you're forgetting that Arrow IIIs are normally designated for Newark or Hoboken Division use because of that voltage problem (I forget the voltage switch mechanism on the Arrow III, but it's a pain in the ass if I remember correctly so they don't bother most of the time, but they can change voltages just not on-the-fly) so the M&E isn't going to get as many Arrows as it needs. Adding to that is the fact that the Gladstone Branch is almost always Arrow III-driven (apart from the Midtown Direct trains), so what do you expect the Morristown Line to use?

It's absurd to use ALP-44 powered consists on a Morristown Hoboken run. It's equally absurd to use Arrow III's on an NEC express.

I agree; I'd prefer to get more Arrow IIIs on the Morristown Line as well, but there's only so much control that any of us have over that.

Least common denominator is NJT's most common practice.

moveonrp wrote:The NEC is better suited for push-pull operation since there is more distance between the stations and the terrain is relatively flat

That's not correct. The average speed has gotten slower with the push-pulls.

Besides, NJT has added a number of stations to the NEC (SEC, EWR, HAM), so the need for MUs has become more accentuated. Seems like, instead of even the historic purchases of push-pulls with electric locomotives (except for those to replace the historic fleets of same), NJT should have engaged in rebuilding the Arrow IIs (and perhaps Is as well) as MUs along with the Arrow III, adding "long doors" and automatic variable-tap transformers to same? (Just a retrospect.)

The 6:29 AM to Morristown is always a 3 car EMU set. Does it turn in Morristown because there is no room in Dover Yard for it?

Although I can find no concrete information on them anywhere on the web, save for this forum, I hear the "Arrow IV", who purchase was approved in June or July, will be able to switch voltage on the fly. Perhaps when those arrive we'll finally we see MU service to NYP where it's needed most: M&E.

PullmanCo wrote:

moveonrp wrote:The NEC is better suited for push-pull operation since there is more distance between the stations and the terrain is relatively flat

That's not correct. The average speed has gotten slower with the push-pulls.

Besides, NJT has added a number of stations to the NEC (SEC, EWR, HAM), so the need for MUs has become more accentuated. Seems like, instead of even the historic purchases of push-pulls with electric locomotives (except for those to replace the historic fleets of same), NJT should have engaged in rebuilding the Arrow IIs (and perhaps Is as well) as MUs along with the Arrow III, adding "long doors" and automatic variable-tap transformers to same? (Just a retrospect.)

I think the average speed has gotten slower because of the timetables and number of trains running (congestion), not necessarily the equipment choice

I remember some years back 2001/2002 when some trains were scheduled for the type of equipment they used - one train would be faster than another, as one train had MUs and the ohter was push pull, etc. This was very evident on the Coast Line - however, NJT in a smart move, made all the running times consistant and it eased a lot of confusion for riders, in particular "pleasure" riders.

The MUs and the push pulls on the NEC (as a whole) at least are pretty close time wise. Why? Because in many instances, the higher speeds of the push pulls (100mph) make up for the slower acceloration. Where it does make a difference is in the closer stops and slower speeds and more signals of say east of Union (Rahway), but overall on an NEC train from NYP to Trenton (and vice versa) its about the same wiht push pulls and MUs.

Not to mention, some of the MU sets are dragging around dead MU pairs, and at times, the acceloration is SLOWER than that of a push pull set. Couple that with the lower stop speed (and speed restrictions) and you can have an MU set that is slower than a push pull set in many ways.

Also, as a point of clarificiation, running a 10 car ML set with 1 ALP is going to be slower than an 8 car Comet set, which is slower than a 6 car Comet set. So there isn't always a cut and dry "formula" for push pull vs. MU acceloration/performance.