More Cab Signals Only

It looks like the SEPTA RRD is going over to using cab signals only between interlockings (NORAC Rule 562) on new signal projects. The R8 Fox Chase line received this system when it was "single-tracked" this year, and judging from the home signals for CP-Carmel on the R2 Warminster line, the Wayne Jct.-Glenside signal project will be this way too.
The system uses standard RDG/NYC style trilight signal heads, 2 per mast, or the pedestal-type dwarf units, all at interlockings only. However, the light system is much more like Metro-North's. Other than STOP (red over red), the engineer normally sees only a flashing green over a red, which looks like Clear - Cab Speed (NORAC Rule 281a). The only other indication possible is red over (flashing?) yellow. What exactly is this indication?

Homo sapiens wrote:The only other indication possible is red over (flashing?) yellow. What exactly is this indication?

NORAC Rule 286--Medium Approach

Proceed prepared to stop at the next signal. Trains exceeding Medium Speed must begin reduction to Medium Speed as soon as the Medium Approach signal is clearly visible.

Red over solid yellow is NORAC Rule 290--Restricting. Given the cab signal context, I suspect this is what the other indication is gonna be. Either you proceed at cab speed or you proceed at restricted.

The interlockings within 562 territory can only currently display flashing green over red, and red over red. The cab signal /ats system entirely controls the trains speed.

In the near future, the flashing greens will be replaced by a white lunar light that will stay solid when the train is heading straight and will flash when the train will be diverting. Again, the ATC system will control the train's speed.

Does anyone know the reason why there's been more use of lunar-white than traditional green for proceed aspects in recent years on rapid transit systems in the Northeast? Washington DC Metro uses lunar, and Hudson-Bergen Light-Rail in New Jersey does too. Seems to me green would be better; it's more universally understood.

I believe lunar denotes cab signal territory while green denotes wayside territory.

SEPTA is not going to adopt a transit style home signal system. They are doing what has already been done on Conrail and Amtrak for years (in this area the Morrisville Line is one example of Rule 562 operation).

I am disappointed that SEPTA appears not to be keeping fully descriptive home signals as well as why they have not installed the telltale 'C' signals to give the Clear to Next Interlocking indication during cab signal failure. The LIRR (which is not NORAC) uses a flashing CLEAR, but NORAC has reserved this for 'CAB SPEED'. I don't know why SEPTA has not installed 'C' markers, but maybe they just figred they'll just write Form D's in a CSS failure, but the lack of full interlocking signal heads is going to make things a real headache.

Anyway, I need to go and take a SEPTA ride in the next month to see what in the heck they are doing up there and take pictures of the old signals before they disappear.

Currently, the signals that display Cab Speed aspects (Neshaminy, Newtown Jct, Lawn, Chelt, and South Fox Chase) can only display the following aspects (as mentioned in a bulletin order when Neshaminy was converted):

Cab Speed (flashing green over red)
Restricting (red over yellow)
Stop Signal (red over red)

Modification for dwarf signals: the Cab Speed aspect is flashing green over flashing green.

About the lunar whites: As stated above, the rest of the signals in 562 territory between Wayne and Carmel (and possibly the signals on the Fox Chase Line, and Neshaminy too) will only display the following aspects:

Proceed Cab (steady lunar over red)
Diverging Cab (flashing lunar over red)
Stop Signal (red over red)

Cab signal indication will govern for all aspects. Either way, use of the lunar lights is more transit-oriented than railroad-oriented. The Cab Speed aspect would have sufficed just as well in conjunction with a lunar white "Clear To Next Interlocking" on the masts for when needed.

I was at Jenkintown this morning and noticed that about 100 feet of the west end of the inbound platform has been removed. There is also a newly installed signal base almost directly in front of the station building and it looks like preparations are underway to move some of the catenary. Is the entire interlocking being reconfigured? It also would appear that the platform canopy will need to be removed or altered for the aforementioned signal. Looks like the days of the classic Jenkin interlocking are gone.

glennk419 wrote:I was at Jenkintown this morning and noticed that about 100 feet of the west end of the inbound platform has been removed. There is also a newly installed signal base almost directly in front of the station building and it looks like preparations are underway to move some of the catenary. Is the entire interlocking being reconfigured? It also would appear that the platform canopy will need to be removed or altered for the aforementioned signal. Looks like the days of the classic Jenkin interlocking are gone.

Yes, the entire interlocking is being reconfigured, and parts of the west end of the inbound platform will be a casualty. When finished, Jenkin will actually be two interlockings "Jenk North" and "Jenk South" (unless SEPTA's changed the names since I saw the original plans).

"Jenk South" are the new crossovers adjacent to the south end of the parking lot. The existing crossover right at the south end of the station will be removed. "Jenk North" is the split between the Main Line and the West Trenton Line. The interlocking will be reconfigured to eliminate the moving-point frog diamond, replacing it with a conventional crossover, and send the #2 track to West Trenton off at the point of the current northbound layoff track.

Classic Jenkin is indeed gone.

As a side note, the #2 main track has been straightened through the site of the former Logan station and is in service. The original track and catenary have been removed.

About the lunar whites: As stated above, the rest of the signals in 562 territory between Wayne and Carmel (and possibly the signals on the Fox Chase Line, and Neshaminy too) will only display the following aspects:

Proceed Cab (steady lunar over red)
Diverging Cab (flashing lunar over red)
Stop Signal (red over red)

This is insane. What are they going to do in case of CSS failure? I hope somebody smaks them and makes them at least use NORAC indications at the interlockings. I guess I'd better get out and take a ride on the main line before esignaled Nthey utterly destroy it. You know, before this I even thought SEPTA was cool for keeping the Ovular RDG style restricting heads and LEDing the old masts. WTF got into them to go to transit style signaling? Maybe there's a plan to seperate the Regional Rail into some sort of transit like a la the old R8 to Newtown.

Frankly, I doubt they'll go through this the lunar white thing as they would have already used it on the Fox Chase (I mean why install a dual head Unilens if you're going to move to a R/L/R affair). Even then I think they'll run into trouble with LW standing for restricting in the rest of the rail world. They also just resignaled NEWTOWN JCT with standard NORAC's (including new ABS exit signals) so at least they realize the importance of waysides on the trunk line.

Here are some photos I took of the R8 on the last day of standard operation. You can check out the resignaling there.

http://acm.jhu.edu/~sthurmovik/Railpics ... nails.html

Thanks Silverliner. Hate to see 'em fix something that wasn't broken and has been with us as long as I can remember. While I'm sure the moving point crossover is maintenance intensive, it's hard to believe it was so bad as to justify a total reconfiguration. Oh well, progress I guess....

While I'm sure the moving point crossover is maintenance intensive, it's hard to believe it was so bad as to justify a total reconfiguration. Oh well, progress I guess.... Sad

Crossover splits are much more popular in this modern world of Rue 261 than diamond splits. Diamonds are cool, but they are expensive to maintain and represent a derailment risk. You also get more flexibility. If an R5/2/1 is approaching the station southbound, you can take a southbound R3 and platform it on the wrong side while the R5/2/1 pulls out. Then, when the R3 is finished it can cross over behind the R5/2/1. Of course SEPTA dispatchers would never be this creative, but they could do it. It also allows n/b R3's to wrong rail without having to first cross over at SOUTH JENK first.

So you propose the people wanting to board the R3 have to scurry thru the tunnel everytime a dispatcher makes this move? Obviously you don't use Jenkintown station.

There would be an announcement made when the Dspr sees he will need to make the move.

There would be an announcement made when the Dspr sees he will need to make the move.

It would be like they do at Dekalb Street Station: they announce the train is late just in time to run up to the P&W and watch it pull out...

Incidentally, can someone explain the difference between the crossover and diamond splits, please?