Montreal - Portland passenger service, past and future

Cowford wrote:

I bet they were close to 59MPH when they were running the Ski Trains. They had to, to compete with the cars.

So how'd that work out for 'em?

Pretty badly, since the anticipated connecting Boston-Portland train service didn't exist due to years of delays, and the station stop in Bethel was miles away from the ski resort, forcing riders to transfer in on shuttle-buses.

Having utilized the ski train, I can say the following from experience: the train ride was very good, but the bus ride was horrible.

That said, I don't think Portland-Montreal service makes much sense. I doubt there is enough demand to justify it.

by gokeefe on Sun Feb 28, 2010 9:06 pm
I would be surprised if Downeaster was routed to Worcester and then onwards.
I have searched high and low for the Montreal ridership study on the internet to no avail. The existence of this study, there may actually be two, is directly referenced by MDOT officials in their remarks in Lewiston in December 2009. If anyone else knows where they are please feel free. I'll take another look and see if perhaps a copy has surfaced somewhere.

by MEC407 on Sun Feb 28, 2010 9:55 pm
I would suggest sending an e-mail to MDOT and asking if they can send you a copy. If you don't get a response, write to them again and politely mention Maine's Freedom of Access Act (FOAA)... that usually does the trick.

I, too, doubt that a Downeaster connection to the NEC will happen in at least the near future.
As a rule of thumb, if the release of a study requires an FOAA or FOIA request to the commissioning agency, the study didn't wholeheartedly support the agency's preconceptions.

jaymac wrote:I, too, doubt that a Downeaster connection to the NEC will happen in at least the near future.
As a rule of thumb, if the release of a study requires an FOAA or FOIA request to the commissioning agency, the study didn't wholeheartedly support the agency's preconceptions.

Not to spread rumors or misconceptions but the only time I've ever heard of any numbers associated with this corridor the potential travel market for the train was something like 800k on an annual basis. This is by no means the suggested possible ridership of the train just the total number of people in ground transportation out of which the train would be lucky to draw anywhere from 1-10%. Both myself and Mr. Cowford have combed over the ridership possibilities pretty thoroughly earlier in this thread.

Pretty badly, since the anticipated connecting Boston-Portland train service didn't exist due to years of delays, and the station stop in Bethel was miles away from the ski resort, forcing riders to transfer in on shuttle-buses.

When you consider that it only takes 1 1/2 hrs to drive Por-Bethel, the 2 1/2 hr transit time (and add 30 - 45 mins for the trip to the train) was the culprit. And considering that you can drive from Boston to Bethel in 3 1/2 hrs, the prospect of a 6-hr+ commute to the train/ride to go skiing would essentially rule out but the smallest minority of Boston skiers.

Cowford,

Offhand, I'm assuming your 30-45 minutes transit time to the train in Bethel includes loading and unloading to/from Newry? Your road times are accurate but only account for getting to Bethel. Here are the time segments per mapquest. Sunday River's physical address for GPS purposes is 15 South Ridge Road, Newry, ME

Portland - Newry: 1'54''
Boston - Newry: 3'40''
Bethel - Newry: 13''

Clearly the train is still slower but not by as much. I think the general caveats/conditions of reststop times etc. for road travel might make this competitive. I do think the 30-45 minute transit time from the resort to the train is very reasonable, especially considering ski luggage.

Sorry it wasn't exact... By the way, Sunday River shows distance ex Portland as 1 1/2 hrs; Boston as 3 hrs. Regardless, the train was MUCH slower. The non-train transit time is for the locals in Portland. Let's say you live in Westbrook... and let's say it leaves from the DE station. 15 minutes to the train, get there 15 minutes ahead of time to get skis off the car and on the train, etc., 2 1/2 hr train ride, 10 minutes to get your skis, and get on the bus. 1 3/4 hrs vs 3+ hrs. If that's not much of a difference, what would be????

Rest stops for a ~100 minute drive? You must drink too much coffee!

Sorry to stray off topic a little, but I was wondering if there is a traget completion date for the Portland-Brunswick extension. i was not able to find much info on the interweb.

Also, was a modern station constructed in Bethel for the ski trains? I'm guessing since it was early 1990s, there must have been some sort of upgrade needed from the old station.

B&Mguy wrote:Sorry to stray off topic a little, but I was wondering if there is a traget completion date for the Portland-Brunswick extension. i was not able to find much info on the interweb.

Most of the news articles have said "by the end of 2012." Check out the Downeaster thread in the Amtrak forum for more info.

B&Mguy wrote:Also, was a modern station constructed in Bethel for the ski trains? I'm guessing since it was early 1990s, there must have been some sort of upgrade needed from the old station.

A platform was built in Bethel. It is still in place today and would require very little if any work to be put back in service. There are photos of it on NERail. I saw it personally earlier last year and it looked to be in excellent shape.

Cowford,

Yes, you're right even with adjustments it still doesn't make sense. I have to wonder if the track speed at the time really was 59MPH. It seems physically impossible for a train that is travelling faster to take longer. They must have been running on Class II tracks. That seems to be the only possible answer.

I think they made some interim stops, though that shouldn't have added more than 3-4 minutes per stop.

Given equipment servicing needs, etc., would Montreal - Portland service in fact be Montreal - Portland - Boston? Was Boston - Montreal service ever offered via Portland in the past, via either the Grand Trunk or the Mountain Division?

Ridgefielder wrote: Was Boston - Montreal service ever offered via Portland in the past, via either the Grand Trunk or the Mountain Division?

To the best of my knowledge, no, and I'm reasonably cognizant of New England railroad history. There was definitely no through service between the Grand Trunk and Maine Central... GT trains terminated at their own station next to the GT office building that's still standing today. The MEC Mountain Division was strictly a local operation in modern times (which I'm defining as the mid-20th century onward). MEC trains from Portland did connect with the CP at St. Johnsbury, and the B&M-CP Boston-Montreal service via White River Junction and St. Johnsbury lasted into the mid-1960s, a decade longer than MEC passenger trains. So Portland-Montreal via St. Johnsbury with a change of trains was a viable route for many years. I'm reasonably sure there was never any B&M-MEC through service between Boston and StJ via Portland, and definitely no Boston-Montreal through service via that route. B&M-MEC through trains all headed northeast at Portland, not northwest.

But it's always possible that there was some through train that ran for two weeks in 1910 or something that I never heard about.

TomNelligan wrote:

Ridgefielder wrote: Was Boston - Montreal service ever offered via Portland in the past, via either the Grand Trunk or the Mountain Division?

To the best of my knowledge, no, and I'm reasonably cognizant of New England railroad history. There was definitely no through service between the Grand Trunk and Maine Central... GT trains terminated at their own station next to the GT office building that's still standing today. The MEC Mountain Division was strictly a local operation in modern times (which I'm defining as the mid-20th century onward). MEC trains from Portland did connect with the CP at St. Johnsbury, and the B&M-CP Boston-Montreal service via White River Junction and St. Johnsbury lasted into the mid-1960s, a decade longer than MEC passenger trains. So Portland-Montreal via St. Johnsbury with a change of trains was a viable route for many years. I'm reasonably sure there was never any B&M-MEC through service between Boston and StJ via Portland, and definitely no Boston-Montreal through service via that route. B&M-MEC through trains all headed northeast at Portland, not northwest.

But it's always possible that there was some through train that ran for two weeks in 1910 or something that I never heard about.

Haha a downeast version of the Long Island & Eastern States Express perhaps... which IMHO Boston/Portland to Montreal via the St. L & A somewhat resembles in backcountry wandering.

Quietly tucked into that $99 million bond issue they're thinking of putting on the ballot this year was:

"$5 million for passenger rail service in the Lewiston-Auburn area."