MFL Blue Line Debate: How to accomodate increasing demand?

For quite a while, I've noticed that the El is standing room only (SRO) for most of the day, from 6:30am-10am, and again 3pm-7pm.

Since SEPTA put the M4 cars into service, 6 car consists have been the norm, with the exception of the occasional weekedn 4 car trains, which seemed to have stopped. I don't remember much about how the Budd cars were setup, if they were 6 or more car trains or not, but either ridership has increased since then, or train lengths have shrunk.

I'm sure this would throw their schedule into a tailspin, but I think 8 car trains would help more of us get a seat during heavy times. I also think we've been had with the ATC system as it seems that trains are running much slower now than they did before. Much slower.

Anyone know "offhand" what our peak car demand is? I'm assuming it would not be possible to run 8 car trains with the size of the current fleet. I would also think it would greatly help to fix the broken A/B system which is greatly underutilized right now. Stations like 2nd Street should definitely be a A/B.

Comments everyone....

If ya ask me the A/B system needs to be overhauled. I would go with this:

FTC: A/B

Margret-Orthodox: A/B

Church: B

Erie-Torresdale: A/B

Tioga: B

Allegheny: A/B

Somerset: B

Huntingdon: A

York-Dauphin: B

Berks: B

Girard: A/B

Spring Garden: A/B

2nd: B

5th: A

8th: B

11th: A/B

13th: A/B

15th: A/B

30th: A/B

34th: B

40th: A

46th: B

52nd: A/B

56th: B

60th: A/B

63rd: A

Millbourne: B

69th: A/B

jfrey40535 wrote:For quite a while, I've noticed that the El is standing room only (SRO) for most of the day, from 6:30am-10am, and again 3pm-7pm.

Since SEPTA put the M4 cars into service, 6 car consists have been the norm, with the exception of the occasional weekedn 4 car trains, which seemed to have stopped. I don't remember much about how the Budd cars were setup, if they were 6 or more car trains or not, but either ridership has increased since then, or train lengths have shrunk.

I'm sure this would throw their schedule into a tailspin, but I think 8 car trains would help more of us get a seat during heavy times. I also think we've been had with the ATC system as it seems that trains are running much slower now than they did before. Much slower.

Anyone know "offhand" what our peak car demand is? I'm assuming it would not be possible to run 8 car trains with the size of the current fleet. I would also think it would greatly help to fix the broken A/B system which is greatly underutilized right now. Stations like 2nd Street should definitely be a A/B.

Comments everyone....

Six-car trains have been standard on the MFSE since day one[Brill, Budd, Adtranz]. The crowding on the line during the rush is because the headways have increased over the years. Back in the 70's the headways between trains were 2.5 minutes. Today it is 4 minutes. The ATC has made the running of the line more erratic, with trains either coming close together or far apart. The old signals [and timers] kept the traffic moving at a better clip than today.

Today SEPTA uses 28 6-car trains on the MFSE. In the 70's that number was as high as 35 6-car trains. The decline in the City's population and the job loss in Center City are the main culprits in the lengthening of the rush headways on the MFSE.

The job loss in Center City has been ongoing since the 80's as consolidation of the banking and retail sectors, plus movement of businesses to cheaper suburbs, or even out of the metropolitan area has reduced demand for transit service area-wide.

The job loss in Center City has been ongoing since the 80's as consolidation of the banking and retail sectors, plus movement of businesses to cheaper suburbs, or even out of the metropolitan area has reduced demand for transit service area-wide.

You should ride the El any given morning and then tell us there is job loss going on. I never get a seat on the thing, and crowding is only getting worse.

I don't know how many of the 220 M4 cars are left, take 4 out for the trash train, but if they're only using 168 during peak time, then there is room for growth (fortunately). Of course SEPTA won't do it on their own as it would increase operating costs (too bad).

On a brighter note, Concilman Wilson Goode is toying with the idea of attaching clauses to the renewal of SEPTA's contract to operate the MFL/BSL. Now is the time to bargain.

jfrey40535 wrote:

The job loss in Center City has been ongoing since the 80's as consolidation of the banking and retail sectors, plus movement of businesses to cheaper suburbs, or even out of the metropolitan area has reduced demand for transit service area-wide.

You should ride the El any given morning and then tell us there is job loss going on. I never get a seat on the thing, and crowding is only getting worse.

I don't know how many of the 220 M4 cars are left, take 4 out for the trash train, but if they're only using 168 during peak time, then there is room for growth (fortunately). Of course SEPTA won't do it on their own as it would increase operating costs (too bad).

On a brighter note, Concilman Wilson Goode is toying with the idea of attaching clauses to the renewal of SEPTA's contract to operate the MFL/BSL. Now is the time to bargain.

It is far less than the traffic during the '70's. The El was much more crowded then that today. The trains ran more frequently, and the neighborhoods [Frankford, Kensington, Fishtown, West Philly] were more densely packed than they are now.

The crowding can be attributed to increasing gas prices, return to schools by students, and the downsized peak headways on the MFSE. The crowding would ease if SEPTA added at least 5 more trains to the line, probably bringing the peak headways down to 3 minutes.

Are all stations capable of handling 8-car consists?

I've had the impression over the years that 6-car consists are the norm for 3 reasons:

1. It's always been done that way (actually this is probably reasons 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ...)*

2. They don't want the hassle of breaking up / remaking the trainsets for different demand loads. It's easier to simply lengthen headways at off-peak times.

3. More frequent service would require paying additional operators. Yes, that would provide better passenger service, maybe attract more riders, give SEPTA a better image, but (all together now) it would require paying additional operators.


* Witness the way the N-5 cars were double-headed on the 100 for several years after the CTA's were retired, simply because the CTA's had all been married pairs.

I swear you've argued this point many times before, and I gave you a similar response then.

Some of the Center City stations are physically too short to handle anything more than 6 cars. Go down to 11th St. First car stops at end of the platform, and the last car just makes it inside. You couldn't fit 1 extra car on a train (if that were possible, which we all know it isn't) if you wanted to.

8th St Eastbound also seems to be very short as well, while the Westbound side is considerably longer, go figure.

Now of course there is 40th St which looks like it could almost fit 10 cars, and 2nd St which is also pretty damn long. Who knows what they were thinking back in the day when they designed those stations.

The only option left is to decrease headways. That has a snowball's chance in hell of happening thanks to the ATC system, and keeping in mind how SEPTA's running of all rail routes has deteriorated (think much tighter headways and faster running on the Reading Trunk back in the old days).

Longer trains would allow SEPTA to increase capacity without added labor though. Maybe if every other train was 8 cars, you could skip the stations with the short platforms.

Of course with the Budd cars, they did have the option of running 7 car trains as some of those cars were double ended, where the Adtranz cars are all married pairs which leaves no options other than even number car sets only.

wagz wrote:I swear you've argued this point many times before, and I gave you a similar response then.

Some of the Center City stations are physically too short to handle anything more than 6 cars. Go down to 11th St. First car stops at end of the platform, and the last car just makes it inside. You couldn't fit 1 extra car on a train (if that were possible, which we all know it isn't) if you wanted to.

8th St Eastbound also seems to be very short as well, while the Westbound side is considerably longer, go figure.

Now of course there is 40th St which looks like it could almost fit 10 cars, and 2nd St which is also pretty damn long. Who knows what they were thinking back in the day when they designed those stations.

The only option left is to decrease headways. That has a snowball's chance in hell of happening thanks to the ATC system, and keeping in mind how SEPTA's running of all rail routes has deteriorated (think much tighter headways and faster running on the Reading Trunk back in the old days).

All of the Center City stations were built in 1907/08, and were built [along with the elevated stations] for a maximum 6 car consist. The subway stations built in 1955 [30th, 34th, 40th] were built for 8 car tains, as the city was anticipating expanding all the El. stations.

Now for some of the stations you mentioned:

2nd St was expanded when the MFSE was relocated from the Front St El to the I-95 median strip, that explains the 8 car length of Spring Garden. Prior to 1977, 2nd St was built for 6 car trains.

8th st Westbound was extended to provide a direct entrance to the Gallery when the mall opened in 1977. There is a ramp that goes up into the mall, but that entrance was closed in the mid 90's to save money, plus entry to the Gallery was achieved at the main station entry.

The same reasoning was made for the extension of the 13th St Eastbound platform, if you noticed that extension leads directly to the 1234 Market Building, however, no entryway was built there. It is exit only.

The construction of Dilworth Plaza at City Hall was the reason for the extension of the platforms at 15th St.

The City Government and SEPTA had some type of plan to extend all of the El Station platforms to 8 cars, but they never came to fruition. Even with the reconstruction of the Frankford side, SEPTA felt that any extension of the platform would be for signal equipment and other non-revenue uses.

wagz wrote:Some of the Center City stations are physically too short to handle anything more than 6 cars. Go down to 11th St. First car stops at end of the platform, and the last car just makes it inside. You couldn't fit 1 extra car on a train (if that were possible, which we all know it isn't) if you wanted to.

None of the stations from 69th Street to 46th Street can handle anything longer than 6 cars, and it appears the rebuilt 56th Street Station will only handle 6-car trains when completed. 34th Street is also stuck at 6 cars.

wagz wrote:8th St Eastbound also seems to be very short as well, while the Westbound side is considerably longer, go figure.

8th Street westbound only got longer with construction of Gallery I; it was to accomodate a now-closed entrance/exit directly to the mall concourse. On the same topic, 13th Street eastbound is longer, I think from past renovations.

wagz wrote:Now of course there is 40th St which looks like it could almost fit 10 cars, and 2nd St which is also pretty damn long. Who knows what they were thinking back in the day when they designed those stations.

2nd Street got a car and a half longer as a result of the reconstruction project between there and Wildey Street due to the arrival of I-95. Part of the extended platform was used as a temporary platform during station reconstruction.

40th Street could platform 8 cars for reasons unknown to me. The westbound side lost half a carlength to make room for a signal/ATC room at the end of the platform.

wagz wrote:The only option left is to decrease headways. That has a snowball's chance in hell of happening thanks to the ATC system, and keeping in mind how SEPTA's running of all rail routes has deteriorated (think much tighter headways and faster running on the Reading Trunk back in the old days).

The ATC system is designed to work on two-minute headways. If trains would keep on schedule, the bunching (and subsequent gaps) would not occur. Bunching happens when there are equipment malfunctions, passenger disruptions, excess dwell time due to passenger movement, late trains, etc. we can't blame SEPTA for that (except for late trains caused by operator delays). But the headways have been increased because of dropping ridership, and thanks to that, we'll never see a two-minute headway during rush hours again.

jfrey40535 wrote:Of course with the Budd cars, they did have the option of running 7 car trains as some of those cars were double ended, where the Adtranz cars are all married pairs which leaves no options other than even number car sets only.

Originally, some of the M-4 order was to include some double-ended cars. that was dropped to decrease weight, as was the original full-cab design for the same reason.

Excess weight played a big part in the delay of the delivery of the fleet. A lot had to be changed in mid-design....even the hardwood underflooring had to be changed to balsa wood...to cut down on weight....