Metro North WOH Rail Options Using the Tappan Zee Bridge TZB

I agree that NYC via Tappan Zee is not going to be even as close in time to Hoboken division with a transfer at Secaucus.

JoeG, if a one seat ride is really that important to you, take Rockland Coach. And I agree, sending NYP 1-5(or is it 4?) to GCT lower level is a great idea, but it isn't entirely necessary. It would also hurt MN in terms of capacity since NJT would now be running there as well.

And everyone needs to get this through their heads. ESA is NOT just for the sake of LI commuters having easier access to the east side and MN. It's desperately needed in order for LIRR to run more trains into the city. Right now, most city bound trains in the morning rush are SRO and NYP is over capacity.

Tappan Zee rail is mainly for cross westchester service. The connection to Harlem or Hudson was just thrown in for good measure I assume. It's not that west of Hudson is second class, it's just that there's a BIG FREAKIN RIVER IN THE WAY.

Is this tappan zee bridge study going to be a real goal of the new bridge? if it is(I think its a good one) why not connect up with the harlem line and run into GCT? how many miles east is the harlem line from the hudson line? and definitely less of a grade

http://www.nyjournalnews.com/apps/pbcs. ... /702130313

Today's the day they announce what the options will look like, so all your questions will be answered.

North Jersey, have you not read the thread? I think your questions have been answered.

NIMBYkiller--
It's interesting that you live on Long Island, and so you feel that East Side Access for the LIRR is only natural. You tell me, West of Hudson, to take a bus. And, you say the difference is that, in my case, there's a big river in the way.
Technology to cross the Hudson has been available, and used, for at least 100 years. You persist in advocating first-class service for those living east of the Hudson, while advocating that those who live WOH make do with less desirable alternatives.

Oh man are you twisted. First of all, I no longer live on Long Island. I go to school in Delaware. When I come home, I take 2 buses, 2 trains, and a subway, taking over 6 hours. The same trip on Amtrak or driving is only 3 hours. Don't try to play this off as some sort of feeling of entitlement. As I stated in my post, ESA is NEEDED for the LIRR. NYP is operating at or above capacity. GCT is operating below capacity(not by much, but regardless, it's still below capacity). On LI, there is a need for more trains, a lot more trains, of both the peak and reverse peak type. WoH is getting their new terminal. It's NYP lower level AS WELL AS a second tunnel. I told you, take a bus, if a one seat ride is really all that important to you. You seem to forget that diesel lines only recently got a one seat ride to NYP, and that's VERY limited. The vast majority of commuters from the Oyster Bay, Port Jefferson, Montauk, and Greenport lines are still transferring at Ronkonkoma, Huntington, Babylon, or Jamaica. Try reading a full sentance instead of jumping out of your seat screaming like an ape after seeing the first few words.

The Hudson is a big issue, regardless of the fact that the technology is there. You can have all the technology in the universe, and a big river is still more of a financial issue than a small river. Needs take precedent over conviniences. ESA is NEEDED, the Secaucus loop is a CONVINIENCE.

And before you go accusing me of preferntial treatment, perhaps you should read some other threads pertaining to WoH. I've always said that I'd rather see the money being spent on the new tunnel and lower level at NYP, as well as the money proposed to be spent on the Secaucus Loop, on a new tunnel to downtown Manhattan with a stop in Jersey City. That's TWO entirely new service areas, primarily aimed towards WoH. That's far more than what ESA is going to offer for LIRR.

BTW, a bus is as desireable as you make it out to be. Rockland Coach is a joke of a company in my opinion(as well as any Stagecoach operation in the US(aka anything CoachUSA)), but the same could easily be said for the LIRR as well as the majority of the MTA.

northjersey, you're saying the same thing many of us have been saying. But tell me this; Is there really any benefit from that? Yeah, a one seat ride, but it takes much longer because you're going straight east, then straight south, versus running southeast.

Dude, chill. What is it with you NIMBY? JoeG makes valid points, and if YOU reread some of the threads, you were arguing for PSA (as was I) on the basis of what's good for LI is good for MNRR. As a matter of fact, I think you used the terms "pathetic" and "wimp" for those bowing to the reality of the argument of no capacity that you now claim to champion.

So why shouldn't WOH have access to the East Side? THE, or formerly, ARC, originally was going to build a loop around Manhattan, I'm sure discarded as too expensive. Unfortunately, as we've all agreed, there really isn't an efficient linkup to EOH lines. Unless they came up with something at today's presentation, that is. I'd have to look to see what's released. I think WOH's hopes lie in some type of transfer or Thruway routing down to the Hudson at Highbridge. Again, $$$ are needed, and it looks like the TZ replacement will eat them all.

Anyway, you are the reason that we all get lumped in together as "foamers". I'm sure JoeG could care less what you call him, as do I, as it's real easy to flame people on message boards. I hope you don't behave like this in real life.

Edited 2/20 for spellling (discarded). - Jeff

I'm closing this thread for cool-off and NIMBYKiller is getting a timeout.

-otto-

The project published the latest list of alternatives, but it isn't on their website yet. However, there will be open houses in Westchester and Rockland on Feb 27 and 28, respectively. They are both 4-8 PM. The Westchester one is at Purchase College Performing Arts Center, 735 Anderson Hill Rd, Purchase. The Rockland one is Palisades Center, Adler Community Meeting Room, 1000 Palisades Center Drive, West Nyack.
I went to some earlier ones, and you can talk with some of the planners. They seem interested in what is said to them. Does it have any effect? Who knows?

And we're back... let's all take a deep breath. Also, let's realize what the goals of this proposal are and not wander too far afield.

-otto-

I talked with a Journal News reporter who was there, Khurram Saeed. I was mostly interested in how the planners thought the bridge line could connect to the Hudson line. He said their idea was that the new line would tunnel through a hill E of the river. In this tunnel there would be a track that looped around to the Hudson line.
I also asked how the Piermont Branch could be used to get to Hillburn (That was mentioned in one of the alternatives), since that line ends at Suffern. He said he thought that was just a mistake.
I haven't tried to figure out how practical the loop idea is. It would certainly add to the cost of the project, but then, the current cost estimates for the expensive plans are in the $14 billion range.

JoeG wrote:I talked with a Journal News reporter who was there, Khurram Saeed. I was mostly interested in how the planners thought the bridge line could connect to the Hudson line. He said their idea was that the new line would tunnel through a hill E of the river. In this tunnel there would be a track that looped around to the Hudson line.
I also asked how the Piermont Branch could be used to get to Hillburn (That was mentioned in one of the alternatives), since that line ends at Suffern. He said he thought that was just a mistake.
I haven't tried to figure out how practical the loop idea is. It would certainly add to the cost of the project, but then, the current cost estimates for the expensive plans are in the $14 billion range.

I liked his articles, they seemed to be well-written. Unfortunately, everyone's favorite reporter seemed to get the assignment that spelled out more of the details:

http://www.thejournalnews.com/apps/pbcs ... 029/NEWS13

It seems that if heavy rail is to be used, most of it would be underground to compensate for the lack of ROW and grade issues.

Commuter rail, if chosen, would run from Suffern to Port Chester, with four stations in Rockland and seven in Westchester. Trains would travel through tunnels beneath Rockland and Westchester, but across the river on a one- or two-level bridge. Trains would pop above ground over Route 303 and the West Shore Line, and would be elevated with a station at a park and ride lot at the Palisades Center in West Nyack.

That would provide a one-seat ride to Manhattan for Rockland residents, because trains would head south onto the Hudson Line from a new station built beneath the bridge. For Westchester or Connecticut-bound riders, trains would stop at one of three possible spots in Elmsford or Greenburgh and continue underground to a station stop beneath the White Plains train station, where riders could connect with the Harlem Line. Trains would continue to a stop at Corporate Park Drive and another near the Hutchinson River Parkway. After continuing by tunnel under I-95 to Port Chester, trains would emerge and head east to Connecticut along the railroad's New Haven Line. This is the costliest plan, at $11.5 billion to $14.5 billion.

With modern tunneling technology, I guess it's feasible, but the way the article is written (again, consider the source) it seems like most of it is underground. Is that the impression you got, JoeG? I would think more portions would be at grade or above, especially when you get into the X-Westchester Corridor (Westchester Av) east of WP. Also, she doesn't seem to know the difference between I-95 and I-287. Does anyone edit this paper?

Also, did they talk at all about motive power? If it's running to Stamford and onto the existing divisions, they'll need M-8's or push-pull.

My impression is that most of the new railroad they are talking about would not be underground, but there would apparently be long tunnels. I think the project is still mostly "conceptual," and hasn't come to grips with many practical issues; as the old saying goes, "The devil's in the details." I will go to the open house, and I suggest other members do also.

Some background on the BRT options, or should I say, more of a fluff piece (source = infamous) (disclaimer: the opinions expressed within this article ARE NOT MINE SINCE I DID NOT WRITE THE ARTICLE!):

http://www.thejournalnews.com/apps/pbcs ... 029/NEWS13

I'm really not an expert on BRT, but my take is that it is just not practical. Given the price tag, no idea how NYS would pay for commuter rail. I still think they're trying to make up their mind on what they want this to deliver - service to NYC, WP, CT, or all of the above?

Lets get this new bridge started! Twice in the past month, I've been stuck in massive delays on the NYS Thruway because of "emergency construction" on the Tappan Zee Bridge. This morning was about 45 minutes and I got off at the PIP. Would have taken well over 90 minutes to cross the bridge.

I went to the Rockland open house tonight. They posted detailed maps of the various options, and lots of guys who worked on the studies were there to answer questions. I also talked at length to a Journal News columnist (Bob Baird); he took notes; we'll see what he puts in his column.
I hadn't realized it, but the Light Rail alternative for Rockland is out. There is a pro forma no build option. The public transit options in Rockland are: Heavy rail, with a couple of different routing options, from Hillburn across the bridge with a connection to the Hudson line, or Bus Rapid Transit. They said Light Rail was rejected in Rockland because it would be too slow and because they expected high demand. Different possible railroad routings were indicated on the maps. In Westchester there is a BRT option, a light rail option and a Commuter (heavy) rail option. As in Rockland, alternative routings are proposed.

If rail is chosen, the proposed routes include about 3 miles of tunnel in Rockland and about 10 in Westchester.

The rail line would tunnel through the hills on both sides of the Hudson. On the east side, it would continue toward White Plains and Port Chester, but there would be a branch which would loop around in the tunnel and join the Hudson line.

One of the engineers gave me a CD with all the maps and documents. The stuff is supposed to be on their website but it isn't there yet. If anyone wants a copy of the stuff and can't get it, PM me. If the demand isn't great I'll copy the CD; if a lot of people want it I'll have to figure out a place to post it; I haven't looked yet to see how big the files are.