Major derailment @ Spuyten Duyvil

120psi would be released. Most passenger trains run 110psi. Not sure if that's a mistake on someone's part or if MN runs 120psi. Dynamic brakes and independent brake are *generally* not controllable from cab cars. Amtrak's metroliner cab cars are incapable of controlling either, even though there is an "independent brake handle" on the control stand. It's just a parking brake on the cab car.

Fan Railer wrote:Based on what can be seen in the following two images, it seems like the shoreliner cabs don't have an independent brake handle:

I don't think any cab cars do, just a train brake handle.

Not good news.

Looks like Hudson Line service will remain suspended between Yonkers and Grand Central on Tuesday.

Limited Hudson Line service will remain in effect on Tuesday, Dec. 3 due to Sunday's train derailment in the vicinity of Spuyten Duyvil station. Customers traveling during peak periods should expect crowded conditions and longer travel times - Link

I wonder how crowded the Harlem Line trains were today?

Mr. Commuter: No, there's no leeway. ASC kicks in at 3mph over the MAS (a small built in threshold that accounts for slight speedometer errors) and even 10mph over the limit is a decertifiable offense.

WestfieldCommuter wrote:As a regular passenger but not an engineer, is it typical to go 12 mph faster than the limit in a given stretch (82 mph vs 70 mph limit in the stretch before the curve)? Is there leeway allowed with these speed limits?

Worse, it seems he was going 82 mph in the 30 mph zone (at the point he put the throttle to idle.)

ACSES = Advanced Civil Speed Enforcement System.
Some versions of Automatic Train Control can sometimes slow or stop a train going faster than what a signal allows. Since a Clear signal just means "Proceed at Maximum Allowed Speed", there has to be another way of telling that it's a 30 mile per hour curve.

Guys let's stop confusing things from NORAC or Amtrak, this is just as bad as the reporters on TV making speculations. Let's just deal with MNR rules and equipment.

ACSES is not used anywhere on Metro-North at present.

MNR's cab signal system does not enforce temporary or permanent speed restrictions.

Cab cars do not have independent brake handle or dynamic brake handle. MNR's P32's have blended dynamic brake.

Yes, regular crew was on this train.

MNR does not have cameras in cab.

No it is not typical at all for any train to be more than a couple mph over the speed limit.

BenH wrote:

lirr42 wrote:There is an NTSB briefing going on right now, you can watch it live: http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/In ... 49401.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Some initial findings they reported:

• The throttle was set to idle 6 seconds before the rear engine derailed
• The train was dumped 5 seconds before the rear engine derailed
• The train was going 82mph leading into the curve.

82 mph ? !

If I'm not mistaken, each MN coach has an emergency brake at the end of each car. (i.e. the red handle that says do not touch)

Hypothetically, if a passenger (or crewmember) had pulled the red emergency brake handle would this have caused the brakes to be applied immediately - or would pulling the handle just set of an alarm in the cab?

I am a sometimes, but not regular rider of the Boston/MBTA Franklin commuter line, having lived along the line for over 25 years. Most all of the MBTA coaches have such emergency brake valves, and I've often thought about just what circumstances would cause me or another passenger to pull it, and honestly, I can't really think of any.

I know the Franklin line pretty well. It doesn't really have any major, major curves, though there are slow points such as the track change at Readville, but really, the train would have to be really *MOVING* at a wildly excessive rate of speed and I'd have to see some landmark go by the windows to really tell the position of the train, and I think I'd need other passengers or the crew yelling something before I ever reached for that lever valve. Given how hard it is for a passenger to be truly cognizant of the train's position, what lies ahead, speed limits, and so forth...I just can't really see one of us pulling on said levers to put the train in emergency, and I'm something of a person interested in trains (hence my visiting railroad.net to begin with.) If I were riding this Metro North line in question, as even a regular passenger, would I be certain enough of our excessive speed and position relative to this upcoming curve to get up the nerve to pull an emergency brake valve and in enough advance time to save the train? I don't think so.

I vaguely recall a truly ancient episode of I Love Lucy in which Lucy continually finds reasons to pull a train's emergency brake valve, setting up repeated confrontations with a very irritated conductor...I think it was in the set of episodes in which the Ricardos and Mertzes were travelling in Europe, but am not sure. Well, NOBODY wants to be Lucy.

Here's an article on the engineer. It's sad all the scrutiny he's going to undergo for the rest of his life, and what he's going to have to live with in the future. Even if there was a mechanical failure, he's going to always live with that stigma if he is ever able to return to work. Sure, he was spared death and major injury, but with the catastrophic damage and all the media coverage, that's like an injury onto itself and ends a career. People are salivating to blame it on him because it makes for a better story. He is also a volunteer firefighter, and from what I understand, a very competent engineer who's come through this curve hundreds of times. I cringe seeing photos of him posted all over the news media. There's even media knocking at his door and keeping a presence at his home awaiting his return for whatever sound bite they can get. But I guess that's the culture the media's bred, guilty until proven innocent. I hope MTA PD assigns an officer to him for the near future so he is protected.

http://www.lohud.com/viewart/20131202/N ... aumatized-" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

On another note, I wonder what his relationship is to the Rockefeller family is? I'm sure he's a far removed decedent, if any relation at all. However, I saw a Twitter post assuming he must have deep pockets and ripe for lawsuits just assuming based on his name.

Somewhat lost in the hysteria after the NTSB report of the speed at the time of derailment was a later snippet on CNN that the NTSB spokesman also commented that the train was actually traveling at +/- 60 MPH while in the 70 MPH zone as reported by the event recorder (didn't say which one). This would seem to imply that the train was actually accelerating beyond that point. I have to wonder if the 82 MPH reported could have actually been free wheel spin after the locomotive left the track and before coming to a stop.

Just out of curiousity, where is the transition from diesel to electrical propulsion usually made and which mode would the locomotive typically have been is at the derailment location? Also, does the locomotive immediately shut down if it loses communication with the cab car?

glennk419 wrote:Somewhat lost in the hysteria after the NTSB report of the speed at the time of derailment was a later snippet on CNN that the NTSB spokesman also commented that the train was actually traveling at +/- 60 MPH while in the 70 MPH zone as reported by the event recorder (didn't say which one). This would seem to imply that the train was actually accelerating beyond that point. I have to wonder if the 82 MPH reported could have actually been free wheel spin after the locomotive left the track and before coming to a stop.

Just out of curiousity, where is the transition from diesel to electrical propulsion usually made and which mode would the locomotive typically have been is at the derailment location? Also, does the locomotive immediately shut down if it loses communication with the cab car?

The changeover point is in Manhattan, nowhere near where this incident happened. The locomotive would have been in diesel mode.

WestfieldCommuter wrote:

glennk419 wrote:Somewhat lost in the hysteria after the NTSB report of the speed at the time of derailment was a later snippet on CNN that the NTSB spokesman also commented that the train was actually traveling at +/- 60 MPH while in the 70 MPH zone as reported by the event recorder (didn't say which one). This would seem to imply that the train was actually accelerating beyond that point. I have to wonder if the 82 MPH reported could have actually been free wheel spin after the locomotive left the track and before coming to a stop.

Just out of curiousity, where is the transition from diesel to electrical propulsion usually made and which mode would the locomotive typically have been is at the derailment location? Also, does the locomotive immediately shut down if it loses communication with the cab car?

The NTSB Twitter feed says:

Preliminary info from event recorders shows train was traveling at approx 82 mph as it entered the 30 mph curve.

So that would seem to imply that the 82mph reading was before the derailment.

There is a 60 mph temporary speed restriction just north of that area on the track the train was traveling on. So it appears that the brakes were working only a few miles north of where the derailment happened if the engineer dropped to 60mph for the restriction.

8th Notch wrote:The railroads are already pushing for a 5-7 year extension to the original deadline which I can see being granted. PTC is a very costly upgrade and every time the railroads meet with the Feds they are asking who is going to pay for all of this.

The argument for an extension would be easier to win if railroads would stop wrecking their trains.

justalurker66 wrote:

8th Notch wrote:The railroads are already pushing for a 5-7 year extension to the original deadline which I can see being granted. PTC is a very costly upgrade and every time the railroads meet with the Feds they are asking who is going to pay for all of this.

The argument for an extension would be easier to win if railroads would stop wrecking their trains.

Metro North with this one has two feet firmly stuck in drying cement just this year alone.

TacSupport1 wrote:Here's an article on the engineer. It's sad all the scrutiny he's going to undergo for the rest of his life, and what he's going to have to live with in the future. Even if there was a mechanical failure, he's going to always live with that stigma if he is ever able to return to work. Sure, he was spared death and major injury, but with the catastrophic damage and all the media coverage, that's like an injury onto itself and ends a career. People are salivating to blame it on him because it makes for a better story. He is also a volunteer firefighter, and from what I understand, a very competent engineer who's come through this curve hundreds of times. I cringe seeing photos of him posted all over the news media. There's even media knocking at his door and keeping a presence at his home awaiting his return for whatever sound bite they can get. But I guess that's the culture the media's bred, guilty until proven innocent. I hope MTA PD assigns an officer to him for the near future so he is protected.

With a story of this magnitude it's almost inevitable that the brass at the news agencies will be having any number of reporters try to get something, anything out of anyone. Even if a reporter thinks it's inappropriate it doesn't matter if the boss is demanding that it get done. It's quite distressing when you think about it. In many ways journalism has become more along the lines of a speculation/gossip machine that just won't quit. Look at the situation here. In the eyes of some the engineer is probably already guilty thanks to the way the press (not all of course, but some agencies) has handled the incident.