Maine Ski Train

Run this URL for some infomation on the Sunday River Train.
Scroll down to several posts on the lower half of the the page.

http://www.railroad.net/forums/viewtopi ... 26&t=55122

The VTR bought has most of the equipment. I am not sure whether
they have the parlor car or possibly it was reconfigured.

OH! Ok... now that makes sense!

Cowford wrote:

gokeefe wrote:3. Charge fares that cover all costs.

If this could be done without taxpayer support, go for it! But considering NNEPRA spends $2 in operating costs for every $1 it earns in revenue, I don't know how this would be possible.

Here are my thoughts. There is a cost. It is a number, not an imaginary thing and it is a real discrete figure. It is not $1,000,000 to run Boston North Station to Bethel, ME and back. In fact it is not $100,000 either. Furthermore, and here is the key point, the train would be full in both directions. NNEPRAs figures tell a simple story, for every one train they sellout, the other one that doesn't sellout looses a fair amount of money. That being the case here is the discovery: in theory NNEPRA is able to cover its costs when the trains sellout.

What does this imply for service to Bethel, ME? If the train runs and is sold out (as it likely would be during peak season) it would pay for itself. Given that the cost to lease Maine Eastern's trainset would likely be lower than Amtrak rolling stock the chances of this type of operations being a fiscal success might be even higher.

Sunday River Ski Train PHotos from 1993 and 1994
http://photos.nerail.org/search/searchr ... t&BOOL=ALL

Articles here:
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1993 ... rs-chateau

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1 ... 16,3934517

Another thread on the Sunday River Train
http://www.railroad.net/forums/viewtopi ... 26&t=57884

This is probably something that could work but there are some questions that come to mind.
One is would the Maine Eastern equipment meet Amtrak's standards? If not, what would it take for it to do so? If it does not meet Amtrak's standards then it most likely would not be able to operate in to Boston nor could Amtrak get involved. Why Amtra,? because they have the contract to operate over the MBTA trackage and the PanAm trackage and that is important if they want to amount to anything. Having said that, the fares would need to be high enough to cover most of the costs although maybe the ski area(s) could help out a little bit here. I still don't know if you will get by the natural preference for skiiers to be able to travel on their terms when and where they want to go, what they want to carry with them and a host of other issues. I like this idea better than trying to go to Vermont or most other places.
Noel Weaver

Noel Weaver wrote:This is probably something that could work but there are some questions that come to mind.
One is would the Maine Eastern equipment meet Amtrak's standards?

Many but not necessarily all of Morristown & Erie's equipment is up to Amtrak standards. While this doesn't answer whether Maine Eastern's equipment is there is a better chance than usual that it probably would. Nothing I have seen from the Maine Eastern would lead me to believe otherwise.

Noel Weaver wrote:Having said that, the fares would need to be high enough to cover most of the costs although maybe the ski area(s) could help out a little bit here.

I would think so too. Especially since Sunday River already has a history of trying to use rail anyways (but that may have been under a previous group of owners).

Noel Weaver wrote:I still don't know if you will get by the natural preference for skiiers to be able to travel on their terms when and where they want to go, what they want to carry with them and a host of other issues.

Many skiers at Sunday River get there by bus from Boston, so at least for this particular crowd they are no strangers to mass transit both at home and in use to their leisure destinations. Some may find using the train preferable to riding the bus even if the trip is slightly longer.

In my honest opinion a seasonal service such as this is very much a part of what NNEPRA should be doing for Maine and it is another example of how they could leverage the investments by the people of Maine in the Portland - Plaistow corridor.

I think the original Sunday River train was in place when Les Otten was still running American Ski. At the time, they blamed the demise of the service on the fact that the anticipated Amtrak connection never materialized. What I wonder is, could a sufficiently visionary (in the sense of "willing to experiment with wild ideas") leadership at Sunday River restore the service on their own, using the old GT route from East Deering to Bethel with a transfer platform to/from the Downeaster at Yarmouth Junction. The catch there would be working with PAR to build a platform that could hug both rail lines; I believe there's at least one corner of the junction that doesn't have buildings or a wye in the way. I could see a situation like that before I could see NNEPRA running ski trains of its own.

markhb wrote:I think the original Sunday River train was in place when Les Otten was still running American Ski. At the time, they blamed the demise of the service on the fact that the anticipated Amtrak connection never materialized. What I wonder is, could a sufficiently visionary (in the sense of "willing to experiment with wild ideas") leadership at Sunday River restore the service on their own, using the old GT route from East Deering to Bethel with a transfer platform to/from the Downeaster at Yarmouth Junction. The catch there would be working with PAR to build a platform that could hug both rail lines; I believe there's at least one corner of the junction that doesn't have buildings or a wye in the way. I could see a situation like that before I could see NNEPRA running ski trains of its own.

Mark,

Even if they did. A train from Portland?

You would have the same failure all over again, not enough population density/mass from the point of origin.

In all seriousness NNEPRA could run it this season. They probably won't, maybe someone will claim that the "ridership" wouldn't be there. In my mind the only convincing argument would be to say that they can't get enough rolling stock. That would be a legitimate argument whether because ME's trainset couldn't be used or because, as we have discussed elsewhere, Amtrak hasn't got any trainsets to spare.

I'm postulating the same business model that was hoped for but never really attempted the first time: a train from Portland with a direct connection to the NB Downeaster. I distinctly remember the Sunday River folks saying when they shut down the project that they were hinging profitability on connecting traffic from the Amtrak service, but the latter didn't arrive for another 8 years. So yes, it would be a two-seat ride with a transfer at Yarmouth Junction, but NNEPRA wouldn't even have to get involved in it other than getting part of a platform in place in Yarmouth.

I guess my position is that a business case was made for the service 20 years ago that relied on a set of assumptions that didn't materialize. Now that they have materialized (and more), I'd prefer to see the private sector have an opportunity to take another look at it before relying on government to do so.

Rode this train often when I was young. It was a great thing. The train was backed by Les Otten, who at the time was running Sunday River. He loved the train and I've spoken with him about it before. They were expecting the Amtrak connection to come after they started running this job. Of course, we all know how that went but they were banking on it. Now that it is here, there may be a different opportunity...

A two seat ride from North Station to Bethel would severely hamper any convenience factor the train would have as its bad enough to get to North Station with ski equipment in tow, but then pick up move it again in Yarmouth, then disembark at Bethel and load back onto a shuttle for the 10 minute drive to the mountain. This may be fine on the trip up, however at the end of the day it is less attractive. What would be the projected running time, 4-5 hours depending on stops? A price point of $150-$200 roundtrip including lift ticket would surely sell these trains out (may not make a huge profit however). Throw in a bar car and you may even attract ski clubs or ski store run trips.

markhb wrote:I'm postulating the same business model that was hoped for but never really attempted the first time: a train from Portland with a direct connection to the NB Downeaster. I distinctly remember the Sunday River folks saying when they shut down the project that they were hinging profitability on connecting traffic from the Amtrak service, but the latter didn't arrive for another 8 years. So yes, it would be a two-seat ride with a transfer at Yarmouth Junction, but NNEPRA wouldn't even have to get involved in it other than getting part of a platform in place in Yarmouth.

While I will concede that whether or not leisure travelers such as these would t
tolerate a two seat ride, I would maintain that the case for NNEPRA to operate this service (with support from the private sector, making this a "hybrid" public private partnership) is stronger because there wouldn't be any capital improvements required. Sunday River could sponsor this train again, right now, this year, this season and NNEPRA could contract with Amtrak for it, right now etc..

markhb wrote:I guess my position is that a business case was made for the service 20 years ago that relied on a set of assumptions that didn't materialize. Now that they have materialized (and more), I'd prefer to see the private sector have an opportunity to take another look at it before relying on government to do so.

As mentioned above, if Sunday River played a significant part in sponsoring the train would that change your perspective? I see NNEPRA as an enabling agency in this case because they have the preexisting ability to contract with Amtrak. Perhaps this could help spread out some of their overhead (which would effectively reduce their burden on the taxpayer).

Thanks for the good discussion!

Moderator note: I merged the old Ski Train thread with the new one.

"Furthermore, and here is the key point, the train would be full in both directions."

They would??? Stating that every train would be sold out is... a bit of a stretch.


"That being the case here is the discovery: in theory NNEPRA is able to cover its costs when the trains sellout."

It's more complicated than that. If a Portland-bound train sold out, but all the passengers got off at Haverhill, it ain't making money.

Cowford wrote:

gokeefe wrote:Furthermore, and here is the key point, the train would be full in both directions.

They would??? Stating that every train would be sold out is... a bit of a stretch.

Fair enough. I'm predicating this idea along the lines that if you provide a competitively priced transportation option along with some good marketing from Sunday River during the "peak of the peak" season that the trains would sell out (I'm assuming either the ME trainset or a five car Downeaster trainset). I could be completely and entirely wrong about this but the bus ridership to those areas lends support to the idea that there's plenty of demand.

Cowford wrote:

gokeefe wrote:That being the case here is the discovery: in theory NNEPRA is able to cover its costs when the trains sellout.

It's more complicated than that. If a Portland-bound train sold out, but all the passengers got off at Haverhill, it ain't making money.

Also true. The assumption being, given prevailing ridership patterns NNEPRA is able to cover their costs when the trains sellout. I would not dispute that while a sold out train full of only BON-HHL passengers wouldn't make money. Therefore, the other assumption also rests on NNEPRAs seat distribution which probably wouldn't allow this to happen in the first place.