Maine Narrow Gauge Museum Discussion

Video of steam locomotive #4 in action! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhEdH_kIEOU

MEC407 wrote:Video of steam locomotive #4 in action! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhEdH_kIEOU

Impressive. I guess the back up on the way back to the museum with a train that long?

A year after deciding to move to Gray, MNGRR is... hiring a fundraising consultant to help them.

The museum is looking to hire a fundraising consultant this month, Brian Durham, vice president of the organization's board and chairman of its relocation committee, said.

"We are going to move," Durham said. "We're not sure when." If funds allow, the move could begin as early as next year, he said.

The museum's board has selected Gray over Portland, Bridgton, and Monson as its most likely new home. Gray officials have been "excited" to work with the museum, which offers rides on and preserves trains that run on 2-foot wide tracks that were virtually exclusive to Maine from the late 1800s to the 1940s, Durham said.

Talks with Central Maine Power Co., which owns the now-vacant right of way where the museum would likely lay new tracks, and Gray Plaza owner Dan Craffey, who could give the group working space, have also been encouraging, Durham said.

It looks like the plan would be to house the museum at Gray Plaza (the shopping center on the right just before you go up the hill into the village coming up Route 100 from Portland) and lay their tracks on the old Interurban Trolley ROW.

Where are they going to come up with all that money? I thought that they were wanting to move so that they could get into their own place? Maybe I'm worng on that. From looking at the satilite photos of that area, they're going to have to start from scratch. Me thinks they should be looking for a lot more than 3 mil. They're going to need storage, yard space, a museum building, shop space, and that's not even thinking about all of the track materiel to lay a whole new roadbed....

And P.S. to the MNG people who keep saying this.....2' is not now, nor has ever been, virtually exclusive to Maine. Please stop telling people that.....

steamer69 wrote: And P.S. to the MNG people who keep saying this.....2' is not now, nor has ever been, virtually exclusive to Maine. Please stop telling people that.....

Hi Steamer,
I'm just curious as to where you were hearing MNG folks saying that 2' is virtually exclusive to Maine? If it was earlier in this (or another thread), then I apologize for missing it.

I admit that the MNG museum puts a far greater focus on the Maine history, but that partly has to do with the fact that the Edaville collection is the centerpiece of the greater entity that is the "Trust for the Preservation of Maine Industrial History and Technology". Edaville, the B&B, and Welsh 2 footers are certainly mentioned, just not featured.

Many of the steam volunteers, myself included, come from Massachusetts, and we all have stories of Edaville to share with each other as well as anyone willing to strike up a conversation with us.

Hey Bill,
How's 7 coming? Hope that you guys aren't running into any big hick-ups. I was leading that comment towards the members who are telling this to the general public in media outlets. There is one quote a few posts up.

"preserves trains that run on 2-foor wide tracks that were virtually exclusive to Maine from the late 1800s to the 1940s, Durham said"

There are quite a few references to this Bill. I'm not saying that Maine wasn't a "mecca" of 2' with 4 major 2' lines in one state, but it was not as is stated above.

Also, can you P.M. me off line here, I have something to pass onto you and some questions about a couple of things at MNG. Thanks

Steamer

Well considering probably 90% of the two foot common carrier trackage was in Maine, virtually exclusive would fit. Virtually meaning almost wholly.

steamer69 wrote:Where are they going to come up with all that money? I thought that they were wanting to move so that they could get into their own place? Maybe I'm worng on that. From looking at the satilite photos of that area, they're going to have to start from scratch. Me thinks they should be looking for a lot more than 3 mil. They're going to need storage, yard space, a museum building, shop space, and that's not even thinking about all of the track materiel to lay a whole new roadbed....

And P.S. to the MNG people who keep saying this.....2' is not now, nor has ever been, virtually exclusive to Maine. Please stop telling people that.....

I'm not a volunteer -- just an occasional customer -- so I could be wrong as well, but my impression has been that there are 3 reasons MNGRR wants to move. First, Phin Sprague wants to sell the Portland Company property that houses the museum, potentially leaving them out in the cold. Second, it's pretty apparent (starting with the way they were treated when Ocean Gateway was built) that Portland is not going to allow the train to extend its route around the peninsula any time soon, if ever. That idea -- run the MNGRR all the way to Hadlock Field as a way to transport people to the ballgames from the far-flung reaches of Munjoy Hill -- was (I think) also contingent on MDOT actually building the rail line for the Downeaster alongside I-295 that they had been discussing a while back; MNGRR was going to dual-gauge it. At this point, that line being built is about as likely as the Portland-Lewiston Interurban being resurrected as a monorail, so MNGRR is stuck with its existing not-quite-to-Portland-Junction route. Third, apparently MDOT has the right to reclaim the GT railbed with 30 days notice if they want to run light or commuter rail on it; while that seems about as likely to me as the aforementioned monorail, it appears to weigh heavily on some of the MNGRR spokespeople. So, long story short, if MNGRR wants to have a stable home and grow the rail line, they need to move.

So far as the proposed location goes, if they can run track beyond the woods and into the more open area of the Gray Plains, they might have some decent wildlife-viewing opportunities there. Downside to the Interurban route is that it's a straight line in and out, so they still won't have a complete circuit to travel.

Mark, you are rght thta Sprague wants to sell. And yes, that could very well leave MNG without a home. Thta IS
the primary reason for wanting to move. You are also right about the city of Portland. For all the lip service they
pay, they have been less than truthful and cooperative. They siad that extending the tracks back to Franklin St
statiob would not be possible beacuse there would be buildings and parking lots in the way. The reaming distance
of about 500 feet is clear, and yet the tracks cango no further.

As for the extension to Hadlock. that was a pipe dream. Too many complications for ot to happen. For one then,
last I knew, the only part of their operation overseen by the FRA was the steam program. To go across all those
crossings wold change that, as would dual gauging an active common carrier line. All personnel would be required
to meet federal certification standards, which is costl and time consuming for a roster of volunteers in a non profit
setting.

As far as Gray goes, having a complete circle isn't really necessary. In fact, it is more prottypically and historically
correct not to. When you are looking to recreate history, you don't want the amusement park theme. Run arounds
are much more interesting.

miketrainnut wrote:Well considering probably 90% of the two foot common carrier trackage was in Maine, virtually exclusive would fit. Virtually meaning almost wholly.

Um....how's that? Lets take a little look.

B&H- 1883-1941, 8 locomotives..21 miles
Monson- 1883-1943, 4 locomotives..6.25 miles
SR&RL- 1908-1935, 24 locomotives..112 miles (In preservation)
WW&F- 1895-1933, 9 locomotives..43.5 miles (In preservation)

So that brings the total in Maine to 45 locomotives and 182.75 miles. Now everyone else

B&B (Mass) 1877-1879, 2 locomotives..8.63 miles
Chicago Tunnel (IL) 1906-1959, 30 locomotives..60 miles
Death Valley Railroad (Had a 2' section...couldn't find exactly how long it was)
Edaville Railroad (Mass) 1947-1991, 6 locomotives, 5.5 miles (They hauled freight and passenger so they count. As a matter of fact they were hauling freight before Attwood started giving rides) (In preservation)
Ft. Benning (GA) 1919-1946, 20 locomotives, 27 miles
Ft. Dix (NJ) 1922-1947, 12 locomotives, 17 miles
Ft. Sill (OK) not sure on statistics for this railroad
Ft. Benjamin Herrison (Il) not sure on statistics of this railroad

So that is 70 locomotives and 118.13 miles, and we still haven't added in

The Ffestiniog Railway (Wales) 1836-1946, 36 locomotives, 13.5 miles (In preservation)
Leighton Buzzard Light Railway (England) 1919-1969, 31 locomotives, 3 miles (In Preservation)
The Lynton and Barnstaple Railway (England) 1898-1935, 8 locomotives, 19 miles (In preservation)
The Welsh Highlands Railway (Wales) 1863-1941, 3 locomotives, 25 miles (In preservation)
WWI Trench operations (Western Front) 1914-1970, 291 2-6-2T locomotives and unkown number of Gas Mechanical locomotives. Estimates for length are in the +/- 500 miles of track. Last section of the railroad in the Somme sector is now in preservation. (While the US did not use it as Common Carrier, the other allies did)
The Darjeeling Himalayan Railway (India) 1881-Present, 39 locomotives, 53 miles

Now we're up to 478 locomotives, and 731.63 miles of track.

All told that means a total of 523 locomotives, and 914.38 miles of track. That would mean that Maine would have to have 471 locomotives and 658.47 miles of track. In reality, Maine had only 9.4% of 2' motive power and 19.98% of track.

And those figures are not adding in Common carriers in other parts of the world...Like the railroads in Argentina and Brazil...if you want to just use US 2' railroads, then the Maine percentages are a little higher....39% of locomotives and 60.74% of trackage, but still not near 90% and still not "virtually exclusive to Maine from the late 1800s to the 1940s". And that's not figuring in the railroad stats that we don't have like Ft. Sill, Ft. Herrison, and Death Valley.....

Good points, but when we talk about common carrier roads, we are generally talking abou the US. And technically,
the FFestiniog and several other narrow guages ever there wer 597 mm, or 1' 11 1/2 inches. I know, half an inch
isn't much, but it's why the Cog isn't standard gauge either. And as a side note, the B&B actually ran for less than a
year. It was chartered in 1877, but was not opened for business until August of '78. Most of the equioment and
materials ended up in Maine, to build and run the Sandy River RR.

Most people wouldn't consider the military basee roads as common carriers, becaus they did not interchange with the
general rail system. Same with Edavile. Technically, the ME 2 footers didn't interchange equipment, but they did
by transfer of passengers and freight. So depending how you look at all these stats, you can make a case either way.
But the common theme is that Maine was the home to most of the 2 foot common carrier roads. So Mike's statement,
though his percentages might not be exact, is basically correct.

merrman wrote:Most people wouldn't consider the military basee roads as common carriers, becaus they did not interchange with the
general rail system

I must respectfully dissagree with you there.
FT Benning Railroad interchainged with both the Seaboard and Central of Goergia. The intechange between the standard gauge Ft Benning Railroad and the narrow gauge was in a yard at in the northern corner of post near the station and 10th Division Road where they transloaded passengers, logs, bricks, cement and glass for construction around the post, as well as lumber from the sawmill at Harmony Church. Equipment was also transloaded here for trade between FT Benning, Sill, Dix, and Herrison.

http://cgsc.cdmhost.com/cdm/singleitem/ ... /616/rec/5
Ft Sill interchainge information

merrman wrote:So Mike's statement, though his percentages might not be exact, is basically correct.

The interchange question is moot, since all interchange between the standard gauge and the 2' was all transload (in the US. A couple European railroads had special cars so as not to have to) so did the military railroads and the others. If we are going to concider the Maine railroads then we will concider the Base railroads since still to this day the Army Railroad is a comon carrier (reporting marks are USAX or DODX). I will change the numbers for you and just include the US railroads, and it doesn't much change things.

Maine has 5 railroads with 47 locomotives and 187.75 miles of track

Kennebec Central
B&H
Monson
SR&RL
WW&F

The rest of the US has 8 railroads with 73 locomotives and 122.13 miles of track.

Chicago Tunnel
Death Valley (statistics not included)
Edaville
Ft. Benning
Ft. Sill
Ft. Dix
Ft Benjamin Herrison
Mount Gretna Narrow Gauge Railway

That totals 120 Locomotives and 309.88 miles of track. The math tells us that Maine had 39% of the locomotives and 60.5% of the track.

So the statement that 2' gauge railroading is "virtually exclusive" to Maine is not correct. The Math doesn't lie, and we either include the stateside railroads that make a proffit off of people and goods or we don't. I will agree with you on the Ffestiniog and Cog and such, but Virtually Exclusive? No. Bottom line is the 2' played a very important role in Maine, I'll even buy that they had the most 2' railroad in one state, but it was not some Maine only thing.

Edaville shouldn't count for the rest of the nation because it was a collection of Maine 2 footers mainly. It was not built to serve other than a collection and attraction. It came after the heyday of building narrow guage rr.

But the quote in question says "virtually exclusive to Maine from the late 1800s to the 1940s"

Edaville was running freight in 1944-45.

From the Edaville Wikapedia page.

"Sand and supplies were hauled in to the bogs, and cranberries were transported to a "screen house" where they were dried and then sent to market. Atwoods neighbors were enchanted with the diminutive little railroad. At first, Atwood offered rides for free. When demand for rides soared, he charged a nickel a ride"

It didn't become a tourist attraction until 1947, and last I checked Edaville is two foot, a common carrier, and was around in the 1940s. The 1940s go from 1940 to 1949. It fits right into the above quote. That's my point. Even if we take Edaville out, it's still not enough to make the 2' railroads "virtually exclusive" to Maine. Of huge historical significance? Yes. A huge part of the history of the area? Yes. Virtually exclusive? Not by a long shot.

I think the intent of the "virtually unique to Maine" statement is that Maine had the largest concentration of two-footers in the US. Sure, Chicago had 60 miles of it - but that was pretty much it for Illinois. It's like saying that Colorado is the only place in the nation as far as 3-foot gauge goes. Even Maine had a 3-foot gauge railroad at one time (the Bucksport Branch was either built as 3 foot gauge or converted to it before being converted to Standard Gauge).

As far as the rest of the world is concerned - Maine is overshadowed by South Africa, and Namibia had a 300+ mile 2 foot gauge for 60 years. And even today Queensland Australia has over 1800 miles of mainline 2 foot gauge sugar cane lines.