LIRR Union Negotiations/Newsday Editorial

Reduced service on Saturday probably amounts to they want to get all of the equipment, especially diesels, to central points before the strike begins so no late Saturday trains to places like Montauk, Speonk, Oyster Bay and other outlaying points where they would have a problem bringing it back to a central location for storage which could be for a long period.
Noel Weaver

And how many people do you think will take those trains out east knowing there is a reasonable chance that they won't be able to return that way on Sunday?

jayrmli wrote:And how many people do you think will take those trains out east knowing there is a reasonable chance that they won't be able to return that way on Sunday?

That is the big question, despite all the press that this possible strike has gotten, many people are clueless.

One thing is for sure, the 8,000 or so people that use the LIRR westbound on Summer Sunday's boarding between Montauk and Speonk,
can not be handled by the Jitney. The Jitney already runs near capacity on summer weekends, and even if all of the 20 extra coaches that they have secured
run westbound on the Montauk line Sunday that might be an extra 1,300 seats, at most.

The North Fork will fare better since most people use the Jitney, as opposed to the LIRR, but trip times will be another issue.

During the week the 20, or so extra buses are scheduled to be used for Ronkonkoma to Queens subway station service.

Ken

The MTA is scrambling today because the majority of bus companies they secured to operate scab service have union represented drivers that refuse to serve Long Island during a strike. Four bus driver unions have proclaimed solidarity with the UTU as of noon today.

If I may offer my 2 cents:

Looking at some of the disagreements which are on the table:

17% pay increases over six years

How much are these workers paid now? This seems like a very generous increase (unless wages were actually stifled for 20 years beforehand). I was always under the impression that railroad workers were paid well, especially engineers. Although I went to school for a good job, I can hope for a 2% raise for cost of living sometime within the next 3 years with a contingent 3% yearly bonus. What is making LIRR employees want this much?

..would require employees to pay into their health care plans and pensions

I do not know about others, but most jobs (including mine and even government jobs like the USPS) have always had cost sharing programs for health care benefits and 45% of all jobs do not even have a 401k matching plan. To put it in perspective, I pay about 1.5% into my "minimum coverage plan" (which is a good plan by the way minus the larger than desirable deductible). My matching plan begins after 1 year of service. Have railroad workers always enjoyed the luxury of a fully paid pension (I know they have Railroad Retirement) and health care plan? In my humble opinion, the whole scenario seems to encapsulate being 'penny-wise and pound-foolish' (i.e. it is not like their jobs are disappearing or they are getting pay cuts, correct me if I am wrong). Certainly after 4 years, I think it is fair for workers to push for a contract & though we sometimes fault the MTA for running out of money, are the workers asking for too much?

Engineers are not striking, nor are they part of the Coalition.

The 17% increase, according to two impartial Presidential Boards is "substantially less than the cost of inflation" over the same period. And that doesn't account for the 4.5% of GROSS pay that the MTA wants subtracted for benefits. Most conductors are paid less than most NYC sanitation men.

Health care and pension benefits were already bought and paid for by the striking unions with "give backs" in past years. Again, read the Board reports.

Before commenting, you might be served well by reading the findings of the Boards. They chide the MTA for trying to break unions through offering less to new members, for failing to bargain in good faith and for providing misleading financial information to the Boards.

Your argument that your pay and benefits pale in comparison with those of railroad workers can be replaced with this logic:

"My wife is fat and ugly, so they too must be required to choose fat, ugly wives. "

I don't think this is the forum to argue pay rates in heavy industry. You may find "Newsday.com" or "Patch.com" contributors more likely to agree with envy-based logic. Or, you can put in a resume and get a job with cops, firemen, theater stage workers, steel workers, stagehands, operating engineers, plumbers, electricians, television entertainment, or sanitation -- all who make better salaries than LIRR Conductors -- where you can bargain collectively. That is, if you possess the qualifications.

Oh yes, and finally, you left out the arguments about air traffic controllers, punching holes in paper, disability thieves and unemployed college grads with loans.

LongIslandTool wrote:Engineers are not striking, nor are they part of the Coalition.

The 17% increase, according to two impartial Presidential Boards is "substantially less than the cost of inflation" over the same period. Most conductors are paid less than most NYC sanitation men.

Health care and pension benefits were already bought and paid for by the striking unions with "give backs" in past years. Again, read the Board reports.

Before commenting, you might be served well by reading the findings of the Boards. They chide the MTA for trying to break unions through offering less to new members.

Your argument that your pay and benefits pale in comparison with those of railroad workers can be replaced with this logic: "My wife is fat and ugly, so they too must be required to choose a fat, ugly wife. "

I don't think this is the forum to argue pay rates in heavy industry. You may find "Newsday.com" or "Patch.com" readers better equipped to agree with your envy. Or, you can put in a resume and get a job where you can bargain collectively.

I am not going to argue with you or anyone regarding compensation, types of jobs, or any other matter etc. I am here to get the facts. If it really is unfair, then I stand corrected. If the MTA always bargains against the workers, then state it. It is much better to argue with facts and not just someone's perception that they are being attacked. Should i believe inflation will be greater than 17% over the same period? Please tell me where this "doomsday" picture is coming from (where do the Boards cite it from, not a biased view of what they said)? I never said railroad workers should get paid less or have less benefits. I am just clearly stating what is so ridiculous about it. "2% of my paycheck now has to go to healthcare?" The sky is really falling. There are people who do not earn enough to eat. It's like welcome to the real world.

I have never really dealt with you LongIslandTool but if this cannot be a place where civilized conversation takes place, I am not entertaining any discussion whatsoever. I clearly said correct me if I am wrong. Next thing you know, you want to argue about who's more educated and I will not go there. Keep your personal attacks to yourself. You do not know who you're talking to.

By the way, as for sanitation workers, it is no surprise they get paid well because of the risk of injury. Do I argue that they should get paid less than someone who went to school and is starting a job? No. Neither do I for LIRR workers or anyone else in the workforce. More often than not I do err on the side that people get underpaid in general (not everyone). Someone can say for a job that "six-figures is too much" but the other side can say "we are actually underpaid when seeing how much money this job actually saves the healthcare industry annually." There are always two ways to look at data.

F-40, If you are the same individual whom I met here in South Florida a few years ago, I salute you for your education and your drive to work. The difference between your job and the jobs on the LIRR is that you have the option to move to a part of the country where the cost of living is not nearly as high as it is in New York City and Long Island (and Connecticut as well). I know a couple of Metro-North people who retired a few years ago and today they are looking to move somewhere out of the above area simply because the cost of living is way too high for them. You have the choice of where you will live and earn your living, the folks on the LIRR do not have that choice, they are where they are and they will have to remain there for their entire careers unless they want to forfeit their seniority, income and job security and not many on any railroad are willing to do that or maybe I should say are not able to do that. The MTA is trying to "strong arm" these folks and I don't think it is going to work. If the management of the MTA does not come to reasonable senses pretty darn soon the consequences will be felt by just about everybody on Long Island and some in New York City as well, it is a darn shame that this has to happen but after four years don't you think they could have had a contract by now?
Noel Weaver

No personal attack intended. Sorry if you felt that way. The remark about fat wives was certainly not directed at your particular wife, but only upon the envy-derived fact-deprived foundation upon which the argument is based. Anyone mildly seeking fact would not have dismissed two impartial Presidential Board recommendations. They would have at least read them.

I will address your flippant remark about inflation. It is often argued that the Consumer Price Index is a fraud. Commodities, perhaps the true indication of inflation are virtually absent from the CPI. Yet, even these outrageously distorted figures indicate inflation of 14+% (http://www.usinflationcalculator.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;) during the contract years. Subtract the 4.5% of before-tax givebacks, and the raises fall far short of CPI inflation. What about real inflation? Do you buy gasoline? (+108%) Meat? (Beef +71%) Food? (+39%)

Where did Tool mention education? Read the Presidential Board reports. They provide all the facts you request from me.

Then tell me how dangerous a garbage man's job is. We can address their and LIRR work-related mortality rates too.

But The Tool's done here. He's going to argue with his dog from now on.

If the current MTA offer is so unfair, let the members vote on it to see their views

What happens if doomsday does not happen on Monday?

How long can 5300 workers survive on unemployment?

Perhaps Mr. Simon is leading the union down the the wrong path

Noel Weaver wrote:F-40, If you are the same individual whom I met here in South Florida a few years ago, I salute you for your education and your drive to work. The difference between your job and the jobs on the LIRR is that you have the option to move to a part of the country where the cost of living is not nearly as high as it is in New York City and Long Island (and Connecticut as well). I know a couple of Metro-North people who retired a few years ago and today they are looking to move somewhere out of the above area simply because the cost of living is way too high for them. You have the choice of where you will live and earn your living, the folks on the LIRR do not have that choice, they are where they are and they will have to remain there for their entire careers unless they want to forfeit their seniority, income and job security and not many on any railroad are willing to do that or maybe I should say are not able to do that. The MTA is trying to "strong arm" these folks and I don't think it is going to work. If the management of the MTA does not come to reasonable senses pretty darn soon the consequences will be felt by just about everybody on Long Island and some in New York City as well, it is a darn shame that this has to happen but after four years don't you think they could have had a contract by now?
Noel Weaver

Hi Noel. Yes it is a pleasure to hear from you. One of these days I shall make it down there once again.

Anyway, I do agree with your point that some workers really have so much vested into LIRR that they cannot afford to leave. The MTA has always been in debt and It is a darn shame that after four long years, they still do not work with a contract. Has the MTA tried to purchase any fixed-income securities such as bonds to reduce its debt? I was never a fan of their strong arm tactics.

Commuter X wrote: How long can 5300 workers survive on unemployment?

Unemployment? The only money they get is what they stashed under their mattress knowing this day was coming.

Yes, X, it's possibly the wrong path. Anthony knows he has the NY Congressional delegation on the side of labor, and he's banking on that. He also has the executive branch strongly on his side. He feels that along with two independent Presidential Boards he will eventually prevail. The reports are scathingly critical of the MTA and paints the Union's demands as reasonable if not conservative. They paint the MTA as disingenuous and dishonest.

Any negotiating requires guts and a certain amount of brinkmanship.

He's not taking the MTA's offer to the membership because it is substantially less than what both mediation boards called "fair and reasonable". Selling out the new members would be suicide for his union and for the craft. I think it would boarder on misrepresentation.

Yes, he could be making a mistake. I've asked myself the same question many times. But all the facts are in his favor. Every argument the MTA has made regarding finances has been discredited by the federal Boards.

Anthony's no dope. I'd be very surprised if he didn't come out on top with this one.

LongIslandTool wrote:No personal attack intended. Sorry if you felt that way. The remark about fat wives was certainly not directed at your particular wife, but only upon the envy-derived fact-deprived foundation upon which the argument is based. Anyone mildly seeking fact would not have dismissed two impartial Presidential Board recommendations. They would have at least read them.

I will address your flippant remark about inflation. It is often argued that the Consumer Price Index is a fraud. Commodities, perhaps the true indication of inflation are virtually absent from the CPI. Yet, even these outrageously distorted figures indicate inflation of 14+% (http://www.usinflationcalculator.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;) during the contract years. Subtract the 4.5% of before-tax givebacks, and the raises fall far short of CPI inflation. What about real inflation? Do you buy gasoline? (+108%) Meat? (Beef +71%) Food? (+39%)

Where did Tool mention education? Read the Presidential Board reports. They provide all the facts you request from me.

Then tell me how dangerous a garbage man's job is. We can address their and LIRR work-related mortality rates too.

But The Tool's done here. He's going to argue with his dog from now on.

Thanks for clearing that up. Of course I appreciate your two cents from an employee's point of view if you work there. No offense taken.

That being said, I do not disagree commodities have gone up significantly ahead of "inflation." It's a bad thing for all of us. Growing up I definitely know the pain of barely getting ends to meet even with both parents working, but thank God, there was always food on the table. However, it is interesting to note that the report (and some excerpts) say "they project NYC to have 2% or below annual rate of growth in cost of living and figures from June 2010 to date have shown 1.5% and 3% growth annually. Economic comparisons reveal that LIRR employees are and historically have been the highest compensated in the industry so that Organizations argue that some "additional makeup GWI is due" from the wage differential shrinkage in recent years compared to other railroad organizations. And "NYCT employees pay 1.5% for their health insurance agreed upon by their TWU." "The 0% GWI in the first three years proposed by LIRR includes COLA's during that period." So, are these wage increases subjective? Could be, but I believe they should look at every other possibility (operating effiencies, costs) before thinking about wages and benefit reduction and I am not sure they are doing that (someone closer to the issue may know).

As a side note, in 2011, sanitation workers made it #7 on America's Most Dangerous Jobs in 2011 with 30 fatalities per 100,000 workers. They have to navigate tight streets, look for oncoming cars, lift heavy material and handle Hazmats left on the street. A worker can lift as much as five tons of waste in a day. Compare the risk to a conductor who certainly has different duties but is relatively safe from these hazards. Again not saying they should be paid less than sanitation. Your original comparison was with these two professions hence my statement.

The LIRR has killed between nine and 16 in-service employees in the past 25 years, depending on when death occurred. Its employee fatality rate is significantly higher than any railroad in the nation, according to a 2009 Railroad Retirement Board investigation.

The NYC Sanitation Department has killed ten in the past 12 years. (Best statistics available)

There are 7150 uniformed sanitation workers (NYCDS); about 1900 "hours of service" LIRR Operating Employees.

I have no idea how you relate this to the merit of cost of living raises. What's your point?

Heavy industry is dangerous work. But so is driving a gypsy cab. Are you saying a guy has to be in the path of death to warrant a fair wage, adjusted for the cost of living? Now I should call you names.