LIRR Atlantic Ave Subway Connection

Could someone clarify the years and extent of Long Island RR operations over Subway lines from the connection at Atlantic Ave. I have seen statements that the tunnel was never used, or that it was used. If so how far did LIRR cars travel on the subway system and to what destinations?
With all the 2004 talk of building a direct connection to Manhattan, would we be only reconstituting a connection which existed and was abandoned?
I assume the cars which could have been used were the Gibbs cars, built by the LIRR to specifications similar to IRT subway cars?
Thanks

Roger

If you mean the connection at Atlantic, I think it was only used by August Belmont and his private car.

I think though there were other connections for LIRR to operate via Williamsburg Bridge to Wall St. That was called I think the dual contracts period.

Any connection that LIRR used to reach downtown is only partially abandonned, which would mean they'd still have to make new tunnels for LIRR at some point.

I don't think the dual contracts type of operation is legally possible anymore cuz of FRA/FTA stuff.

To Nimbykiller and Fordhamrod:

Unfortunately, at this point in time there does not exist a 'smoking gun' to indicate that the LIRR-IRT Atlantic Terminal connection was ever used in revenue service. It is RUMORED that August Belmont's private subway car -- The Mineola -- used this connection to ferry his distinguished guests from the Belmont hotel (in midtown) to his famous racetrack in Elmont. No documents or photos have popped up to show with 100% certainty that this actually happenned.

IIRC the connection was severed by the Interstate Commerce Commission (later to become the FRA) before it was put to use in either 1916 or '17 when they ruled that rapid transit and mainline railroads were NOT compatible (anymore). Up till last year the ROW was still visible from the IRT #2 & #3 train platform (at the Motorman's position).

BTW, the LIRR MP-41's were essentially Gibbs cars that would have MUed with the IRT Gibb-car equivalent. Even the interior of the MP-41's were patterned after subway cars. Seating was completely lateral bench-type (with straphandles). They had steps w/traps for both hi-level subway and conventional rural station operation.

"... in either 1916 or '17 when they ruled that rapid transit and mainline railroads were NOT compatible (anymore)."

So H&M wasn't rapid transit?

Nope....because the H & M (now PATH) crosses state lines. Notice that New York City's rapid transit system doesn't go past the borders of the city (it comes within a few blocks of Nassau County (Lawrence) at the Mott Ave. station of the Far Rockaway 'A' train).

"... in either 1916 or '17 when they ruled that rapid transit and mainline railroads were NOT compatible (anymore)."


That must also be one of the reasons why the Chestnut Street connection between the BRT and LIRR was abandoned in 1916.

The term "dual contracts" has nothing to do with joint operation between the LIRR and the BRT/BMT.

The Dual Contracts involved spending public and private funds, begining in March 1913, to more than double the size of the IRT as well as build a seperate subway system that would become part of the BRT.

With the Dual Contracts, the Culver and West End lines came together at a new double-deck station called Ninth Avenue. The Contracts also built Stillwell Terminal.

[That must also be one of the reasons why the Chestnut Street connection between the BRT and LIRR was abandoned in 1916.]

Bob, I'd hazard a guess that that was indeed the case.

Don't ya wish you were back in those days when the BRT and the LIRR were sharing trackage? Really cool trips could be taken like going from points on Nassau or Suffolk Counties and ending up at Coney Island or running over the Williamsburg Bridge to lower Manhattan. And ditto for Brooklynites who could take a BRT train and go to points on Long Island WITHOUT having to CHANGE trains!

Oh man, if we could have direct rail service from suburban LI to Coney Island again, I think I'd be in heaven!

Oh, and sorry bout the dual contracts thing. Got a lil mixed up.