Let NJ Transit's Trains Use PATH Tunnels to NYC

MattW wrote:

sullivan1985 wrote:I'm still trying to figure out where this guy got the information that PATH and NJT share tracks on a regular basis. Amtrak must hate when those mystery PATH trains just show up at DOCK.

It's probably PATH's use of Newark station and the track between Harrison and the Kearney Connection area. Without looking at a track map or just flat knowing better, the uninitiated might assume there's some interconnection in there. Wasn't there some back in the H&M days?

But a quick glance at Google Maps is not enough of a source to base an article on where the writer is dead serious.

The sole connection (if it remains) would be near the portal east of journal square. That connection was the remnant of the PRR crossover to allow their trains to use the other tracks after the now-removed 6th ave viaduct bridge.

I cannot believe that anyone would be allowed to publish this article without at least some basic fact checking.

The author is someone who specializes in IT. I sent them a note via corrections contact, so hpefully either the story is pulled, or at least updated to reflect reality.

Also, it does seem that the tail track just east of the portal does link PATH to the national rail network after all. I dpn't think it's track that you'd want to run anything over more than 2 mph though.

I think the multilevels should fit. If there is a problem, let air out of the tires.
Here's a true story. Years ago there was a loaded train of automobile trilevels to get out of the Meadows and send up the West Shore. The engineer said it wouldn't fit through the Weehawken tunnel, but the dispatcher and the train master ordered him to take it through, which he did until it ground to a halt, about half way through the tunnel. The cars on the top level of the trilevels had been turned into convertibles. I heard that the railroad officials got the damaged vehicles.

25Hz wrote: Also, it does seem that the tail track just east of the portal does link PATH to the national rail network after all. I dpn't think it's track that you'd want to run anything over more than 2 mph though.

I don't think you'd want to run NJT trains more than 2 mph all the way to 33rd st. And would they make local stops along the way, or run express, shoving the PATH trains ahead of them?

25Hz wrote:The author is someone who specializes in IT. I sent them a note via corrections contact, so hpefully either the story is pulled, or at least updated to reflect reality.

I don't want the story pulled. it's a great joke; and if they try to implement it, it'l be an even greater joke.

They could have at least saved it for the April issue.

Here is what I posted on the Huffington Post blog, lets see if it gets cleared.

Sorry but this story belongs in the "least amount of research done" category.
The H & M tunnels were built for 3rd rail rapid transit use only, and the curves will never allow standard size passenger cars (NJT and Amtrak) to pass through.
In fact back in the mid to late 1960's when the Port Authority started to put new PATH cars in service they had to make cuts into the tunnel curves just to allow these rapid transit cars to pass. This alone was not an east task as the sides had to cut so as to not risk the integrity of the tunnels. It is also very debatable if there would be room for overhead wire to be strung in these tunnels.

Lastly PATH trains do NOT share trackage with NJ Transit and Amtrak.
Yes, there is a section between Newark Penn Station and Harrison
where you will see all these trains near each other, but they are running on their own dedicated tracks, with their own signal and control systems.

Yes, solutions are needed for congestion in this area, but this option is so NOT possible.

KA

As Director, nycBizTech Consulting, the author should stick to what he knows best and leave the railroaing to railroaders.

That's an informative reply to the half researched Huff Post article. So the PATH tried to put in (K) cars that didn't fit, and had to do surgery on the cast iron tunnel structure. Another great joke.

philipmartin wrote:That's an informative reply to the half researched Huff Post article. So the PATH tried to put in (K) cars that didn't fit, and had to do surgery on the cast iron tunnel structure. Another great joke.

Half? They probably looked out the train window & saw PATH, and that was the extent of their research.

MattW wrote:

sullivan1985 wrote:I'm still trying to figure out where this guy got the information that PATH and NJT share tracks on a regular basis. Amtrak must hate when those mystery PATH trains just show up at DOCK.

It's probably PATH's use of Newark station and the track between Harrison and the Kearney Connection area. Without looking at a track map or just flat knowing better, the uninitiated might assume there's some interconnection in there. Wasn't there some back in the H&M days?

There is(was) a connection across the PATH main tracks that connected it to the CETC'ed version of HUDSON. I believe that connection has since been removed, as the circuits now show open on the modelboard.

peconicstation wrote:Here is what I posted on the Huffington Post blog, lets see if it gets cleared.

Sorry but this story belongs in the "least amount of research done" category.
The H & M tunnels were built for 3rd rail rapid transit use only, and the curves will never allow standard size passenger cars (NJT and Amtrak) to pass through.
In fact back in the mid to late 1960's when the Port Authority started to put new PATH cars in service they had to make cuts into the tunnel curves just to allow these rapid transit cars to pass. This alone was not an east task as the sides had to cut so as to not risk the integrity of the tunnels. It is also very debatable if there would be room for overhead wire to be strung in these tunnels.

Lastly PATH trains do NOT share trackage with NJ Transit and Amtrak.
Yes, there is a section between Newark Penn Station and Harrison
where you will see all these trains near each other, but they are running on their own dedicated tracks, with their own signal and control systems.

Yes, solutions are needed for congestion in this area, but this option is so NOT possible.

KA

PS: Good reply thoughts here...The track gauge is the only similarity between the PATH and what NJT uses on its commuter rail system...

To allow larger NJT cars to access the tighter clearances and curves in the Hudson Tubes (I will use that old name) the tunnels would have
to be either enlarged and/or rebuilt to allow NJT commuter trains to use them...I will add that these cast-iron tubes were not designed
to accomodate overhead wire - with 11KV AC wire you would need a sufficient clearance to allow the current from not "flashing over" to
either the car or locomotive roof below or the cast iron tunnel rings above...

The MBTA's (Boston) 0600 and 0700 series Blue Line cars are to me literally "PATH cars with pantographs" and I also know that the roof apparatus
and pantograph will not correctly clear the PATH tube clearances...If PATH used overhead wire these are what PATH's cars would more then
likely look like...

TL: That was a excellent post with the history of connecting separate rail lines in the past...With your mention the LIRR's Flatbush Avenue
Terminal comes to mind...To allow 85 foot cars like the M1 MU's to go to FBA there had to be modifications like higher levels for its platforms
and luckily the curved sections of track in the tunnels there did not preclude the use of longer cars - as mentioned the oldest LIRR MU cars
were IRT compatible and the original thought was to run through trains over the IRT lines to Manhattan - some of the remnants of the old
proposed connection were still visible until the recent years FBA renovation by the MTA...

In closing the price tag to modify the PATH tubes would be probably so high that it would pay to just build the two new proposed Hudson
River tunnels to NYP and renovate and rebuild the current two track tunnels when the tracks can be shifted over - one at a time allowing
three tracks to enter NYP eventually and then four when the project is finally completed...

MACTRAXX

Trainlawyer's post above is probably the most interesting I haver ever read.
The Pennsy had a third rail MU operation out of Camden.
In 1960 the PRR's New York Division Division Operator (Chief Dispatcher) was Merle Stewart. His father had been a PRR engineer, and he had been an official on the H&M before he became our boss.
The third rail still ran from the tunnels to Hudson tower when I worked there in 1972.
The BRT- Brooklyn Rapid Transit - became the BMT in 1923, and had to contend with another hostile mayor, John Hylan. The BRT had the Malbone St. disaster in November of 1918, in which at least 93 people died. This train came out of Park Row, Manhattan, and went across the Brooklyn Bridge.

TL's post may be an interesting tidbit of history but it largely irrelevant today. Sure, the railroad used to run on those tracks prior to building the High Line. The gauge of the track is not in question. What is in question is the billions it would take to modify the current operation to work with NJT's existing operations which includes dual modes, AC electric engines and Multi Level vehicles, all of which are longer than PATH equipment.