Lack of Long Distance service on former RDG system

I don't remember if this was discussed before so I'm throwing this question out for everyone: Why were all of the former Reading long distance routes eliminated once SEPTA took over in 1981? I'm sure ridership was a factor, but I'm curious to know if it was ever discussed in the early '70's for Amtrak to run the long distance runs (Reading, Jersey City, Scranton, Harrisburg, Shippensburg, Allentown, etc. Forgive me for not knowing when some of these lines were axed by the RDG, but they had a extensive system outside of Philadelphia, and I would think some of them would have qualified as being "Inter-city" rail service which falls under Amtrak's domain.

If anyone has knowledge of how the Reading system was taken apart and given exclusively to Conrail, then SEPTA, please share it.

jfrey40535 wrote:Why were all of the former Reading long distance routes eliminated once SEPTA took over in 1981?

{W]as {it} ever discussed in the early '70's for Amtrak to run the long distance runs (Reading, Jersey City, Scranton, Harrisburg, Shippensburg, Allentown, etc.
...
I... think some of them would have qualified as being "Inter-city" rail service which falls under Amtrak's domain.

Well, I can only speak to the two shortest of those routes,
the Philly to Allentown via Valley Forge and Perkiomen Railroad,
and Philly to Bethlehem via Bethlehem Branch.

Traffic on those lines had been declining for decades, but what helped put the nail in the coffin was the Northeast Extension of the PA Turnpike/I-476 and Route 309.

All of those towns were hitting hard times in the early 70s, many lost jobs, some may have lost population. Even with soaring gas prices, the passenger service was not a top priority.

Hal

When Amtrak was created in 1971, the Reading was one of a number of railroads that opted not to "join", and was, therefore, required to continue to operate what intercity routes it had at that time. The Reading declared bankruptcy in 1971 and was taken over by Conrail in 1976, ending all for-profit railroad operation by the company. Septa took over daily operation of the passenger service of the Reading in 1974, but did not assume full responsibility until 1983. It appears that by that time, most of Reading's passenger service was within Pennsylvania, permitting its operation by Septa, though Conrail may have continued to operate the New York service until 1983. Septa assumed ownership of those passenger lines belonging to Conrail ( including the former PRR suburban lines) in 1983, thus creating the RRD. I don't know how, legally, Conrail was able to operate the New York service, since Amtrak was the legal operator of intercity passenger service, except for those private railroads which had opted not to join Amtrak and Conrail was also a quasi-governmental entity, with a freight mandate ( unless the NY service was considered to be commuter service), however it does not appear that Amtrak ever operated any former Reading passenger service.

I suppose the PA economy explains alot as far as cities like Allentown and Reading and the demise of passenger service. Things are a better today, but I think our economy still lags, as indicated by our high-quality transportation system.

Reason I asked is, cities like Hershey, Allentown and Scranton should at least be on some transportation planner's radar for rail service...someday. I brought up Amtrak because they could offer something a little better than slow-poke, stop at every corner SEPTA who will spend millions studying it, then opt to do nothing.

I know it was mentioned here before, but having a second road to NY like the crusader would be a nice option, plus Jersey City is becoming a large economic center in itself with lower Manhattan lacking office space.

But you guys answered my question....thanks.

Remember, the Reading was basically a connecting railroad--- it didn't cover, on its own trackage, a very extensive service area ( such as that covered by the PRR, New Haven, or even the B&O). As such it was highly dependant on those connecting railroads in the Northeast, other than the PRR, which were also attempting to compete with the "standard railroad of the world". The small cities and towns, particularly in Pennsylvania, which were primarily served by the Reading, were the most succeptable to the increasing competition by trucking companies in the late 1960's, and the move away from Anthracite coal as a primary fuel which also occurred during that period removed what may have been the largest commodity carried by the Reading. Add to that the removal, by the U.S. Post Office, of mail from railroad passenger trains, including those of the Reading, plus the failure of the Penn Central, by that time also a "connecting" railroad for the Reading and you had all of the prerequisites for the bankruptcy which occurred in 1971.
Amtrak wouldn't have been interested in the Reading's passenger service, especially the New York Division, in 1971, since its major mandate was to eliminate as many marginal routes as it could. With the present NEC as the major DC-NY- NE route, the Reading's route, even when combined with the abandoned B&O route simply did not have enough capacity to be useful to an Amtrak whose primary mission was to relieve the private carriers of their unprofitable intercity passenger services. Reading's other passenger routes were simply too "local" in nature for Amtrak to have been interested in taking them over.

SEPTA did, in fact operate to Newark, NJ for a while in its infancy.

Well that's what I'm talking about. Newark, NJ isn't exactly SEPTA territory. Although neither is Newark, DE.

But Reading Terminal to Newark, NJ in my view is a intercity route, so I'm just suprised that once SEPTA (or even Conrail) took over the RDG, that there was no one saying "hey that should be an Amtrak route", I mean maybe they could of at least found a way to keep it open. Would be convenient today.

SubwaySurface wrote:SEPTA did, in fact operate to Newark, NJ for a while in its infancy.

SEPTA didn't operate those trains: CR operated them under contract for SEPTA and NJ Transit.

jfrey40535 wrote:Well that's what I'm talking about. Newark, NJ isn't exactly SEPTA territory. Although neither is Newark, DE.

No, but Delaware DOT contracts with SEPTA to provide service to the Delaware stations.

jfrey40535 wrote: I'm just suprised that once SEPTA (or even Conrail) took over the RDG, that there was no one saying "hey that should be an Amtrak route", I mean maybe they could of at least found a way to keep it open. Would be convenient today.

That's the rub---- Amtrak wasn't "required" to operate any particular route--- It was Amtrak's decision which routes it retained and which routes it eliminated. As a government creation, of course, this was subject to politcal considerations, but there was nothing in the enabling legislation that specified which routes Amtrak would be required to operate. Since the RDG opted not to join Amtrak, none of its routes were subject to operation by Amtrak, and Amtrak could not be required to operate any of them.

Does anyone know what route the "Crusader" took from Reading Terminal to Newark? Does the ROW still exist? What ever happened to the train itself?

Thanks for the info Walt....you would think since the routes were all being taken over by various public agencies that there would have been public discussion on how they were being chopped up and discontinued. But I guess the empty seats said enough.

Is the mindset at Amtrak different today? In the past few years they have been adding routes, but again I'm sure its in areas where they know they can fill cars. However, when SEPTA talks about trains to Reading, I'm puzzeled as to why SEPTA and Reading are talking amongst themselves to operate the line (or fund it), instead of giving it to a carrier like Amtrak. After all, the route will be subsidized and a money loser (not saying it wont be successful or needed), but its kind of out of character for SEPTA to be fighting to operate a rail route. Or are they just after the subsidy?

ewonder, I can speak to your Crusader question: the route is still very much intact. From Philadelphia to West Trenton the route is electrified and operated as SEPTA's R3 line. Beyond West Trenton, the line continues north through Pennington, Hopewell, and Bound Brook, NJ, as CSX's main freight route into North Jersey from the south. (Hopewell's old station was recently restored and makes a good photo prop, although the angles can be tricky.) From Bound Brook the Reading utilized trackage rights over CNJ to reach Jersey City. I believe the CNJ route is mostly gone. B&O, and later CSX in the Conrail era, had trackage rights over the Reading line, since it connected with B&O's East End Subdivision at Park Junction, near the Phila. Museum of Art (although B&O bypassed Reading Terminal). With the Conrail breakup, CSX purchased the line outright. You can see any kind of traffic on this line, including the Tropicana Juice train, as well as a joint NS/CSX stack train that runs under the catenary wire (!) between West Trenton and Woodbourne, where there is a relatively new connection to NS's Morrisville Line (ex-PRR Trenton Cutoff). When I was a wee lad, my parents took my siblings and me on a day trip to NY and we caught the Crusader in Jenkintown - at that point it was a Conrail train consisting of two RDCs and very much on borrowed time. It ran as far as Newark Penn Station via the Aldene connection that connected the CNJ with the Lehigh Valley's route into Newark. From there you took the PATH train to the World Trade Center. I live in Jenkintown now and I often wish I could take the train right from there to NY instead of having to either take SEPTA to Center City first or drive to Trenton to catch New Jersey Transit. But NJT is conducting a study on the feasibility of reinstating service from West Trenton north to Newark, so stay tuned.

One more post, about the Amtrak question: I think the reason Amtrak was not interested in the Allentown - Harrisburg business or the Phila-Newark via W. Trenton business is because they were short hauls, and because they paralleled other routes so closely. Allentown to Harrisburg just doesn't have the ridership base to support competing with the Keystone Corridor in its backyard. If Amtrak ran from Philly to Harrisburg via Reading, it would have the issue of getting through NS' freight traffic in Reading (where the old Franklin St. station is and presumably an Amtrak stop would be located) and then have to face possible freight delays on the Lebanon Valley line. Instead, they own the Keystone Corridor and have it virtually to themselves, and the state is even contributing lots of money to (finally) replace the stick rail with welded.

Andrew---do you remember how much longer that route took to Newark? THat would be so convenient, say to board a train at Somerton or Trevose, and boom--you're on your way to NYC. A transfer at Newark isnt that bad either.

There are alot of people living in Bucks County now who work in NY. I'm suprised they haven't called for the train's return.