Just a snippet from the NY Times...

With they NYC Subway turning 100 this year, the NYT has had some very interesting articles on the subject of how the subway has changed the city.

"...Without the subway, it's hard to imagine that New York would have remained a great city, indeed the ultimate city. Urban greatness, in the 21st century no less than the 20th, requires an efficient, safe and effective rail transit system. Without the subway, New York might very well have turned out to be Bridgeport."

Now, why doesen't SEPTA and the state of PA see that the rail system is vital to the growth of Philadelphia (and PA as a whole) back to the great metropolis it was in the early 20th century?

Well, I think it cann all be sumed up in a few words:

WITHOUT A DOUBT, SEPTA IS THE MOST BACKWARD THINKING TRANSIT AGENCY IN THE NATION. That is not to say that there are not good people working there, or that they dont try hard. For some reason the entire Philadelphia region and the state govt prefers shooting itself in the foot every chance it gets rather than making progress. I drive around everyday and see remains of two mighty rail empires that are now mostly left to rot and it drives me crazy. Development is out of control and no roads or transit options are ever created.

Service should be restored to Newtown, West Chester, Quakertown, and Bethlehem NOW. Too bad this is just another rant and a wish rather than something that will ever happen in my lifetime, and im only 28.

bufetfan wrote:Well, I think it cann all be sumed up in a few words:

WITHOUT A DOUBT, SEPTA IS THE MOST BACKWARD THINKING TRANSIT AGENCY IN THE NATION. That is not to say that there are not good people working there, or that they dont try hard. For some reason the entire Philadelphia region and the state govt prefers shooting itself in the foot every chance it gets rather than making progress. I drive around everyday and see remains of two mighty rail empires that are now mostly left to rot and it drives me crazy. Development is out of control and no roads or transit options are ever created.

Service should be restored to Newtown, West Chester, Quakertown, and Bethlehem NOW. Too bad this is just another rant and a wish rather than something that will ever happen in my lifetime, and im only 28.

Before extending service, why doesn't SEPTA first work on improving everything that makes them one of the country's slowest, deteriorated, and most maligned transit systems? Wouldn't that make more sense, instead of giving them more troubles, ultamitley leading to some kind of major service cuts, cost cutting, etc.?

No. You have gotten your priorities backwards.

Service on lines like the R7 and R5 is actually quite efficient. Much of the RRD requires little improvement.

Not to mention that service (re-)expansions are still needed. Investing in the status quo won't get cars off the road or help with traffic jams. People will ride trains from as far as Reading and Quakertown, and if the trains are not available, what alternative is there?

You have a good point, Irish. But, you have to remember, according to SEPTA, the alternative is the bus. As sad as that may be, that's what they think.

Just like the trolleys that have come under the axe, the alternative given is the bus. When the subways are shut down at night, take the bus. Trains stopped before midnight? Hop on a bus. 'Bustitute' is the only term that SEPTA knows when it comes to the future of the rail lines in Philadelphia.

It is amazing that they have not come to the realization that busses are not the answer to the problem, but are creating more of a problem. The idea of an efficient transit system is to get people off of the roads, not to add more and larger vehicles to the equation.

The state needs to help (or get rid of) SEPTA with the looming up front costs of system expansion. Not to mention, they need someone to help them come down from the clouds at 1234 and plan things out right.

Sure, we all want rail expansion and better service, but not if it comes at the cost of haphazard and shoddy expansion.

I have to agree and disagree. While I and most of the members of this list would love service to be restored on all abandoned lines, there is absolutely no point in doing so unless it is going to meet the needs of customers. The first thing SEPTA should do is find out exactly what its customers (not only those travelling now, but its potential future users) actually want and what services they would be willing to use. As railfans, we would love restoration of service, but it has to serve a purpose. SEPTA could use their budget much more effectively if they actually tried to understand their customers. Unfortunately too often they view their customers as an inconvenience.

Sorry for the rant.

SEPTA has to go beyond the basics of trying to find out what (potential) riders may want. I'm not sure how many people, myself included, would be able to reasonably answer a somewhat open-ended question on the order of "Where would you like to go, what kind of service would you like, and would you actually take it?"

Yes, they need to look for opportunities to improve current service or add new routes. But at the same time, it's not enough to simply run a rail line or <gritted_teeth>bus</gritted_teeth> without getting people to think about it as a viable alternative to driving. They also need to get on the ball about generating demand through marketing their services. I keep coming back to how they handled the 123 a few years ago - it just appeared one morning, no promotion, no special offers, no sizzle, no nothing. It took word of mouth before it was carrying more than a handful of riders. Fortunately patronage did increase, but the route shouldn't have been a mystery for months. "If you build it, they will ride" don't cut it, SEPTA.

One must live in darkness to not notice the expansion of suburban Philadelphia. There are Thousands of homes and businesses in the suburbs that were not there a decade ago, and the trend is growing, not diminishing.

It is vital to re-open rail lines that have been previously shut down. Local rail lines lead to major rail arteries - such as Amtrak, and other means of public transportation, even airports.

There are individuals and groups out there pushing for future high-speed rail lines all across the country. A trip would start out on local rail lines, then connect to the major lines.

To be productive, we need choices in transportation. If we do not expand rail service into the suburbs, we will be living far behind the rest of the country, since many municipalities and cities are planning rail systems right now. We will be slaves to gasoline prices and the high cost of automobiles. We will fall behind the productivity of other countries, where efficient rail systems are already in place.

queenlnr8 wrote:Just like the trolleys that have come under the axe, the alternative given is the bus. When the subways are shut down at night, take the bus. Trains stopped before midnight? Hop on a bus. 'Bustitute' is the only term that SEPTA knows when it comes to the future of the rail lines in Philadelphia.

I'm not going to be popular with this post, but here goes. Busses are not fundamentally evil. There are times that it is preferable to operate bus service in lieu of rail. The Subway/El, for example, is shut down at night when there is less demand so that work can be done in the tunnels and because there is a point at which it is less economical to operate an entire train than it is to operate a bus.

By operating a night owl bus, SEPTA can avoid paying for:
- token booth operators at every single station; in come cases two per as the entrances are not connected (example at 40th & market).
- Transit police to police stations (yes, they really are out there)
- subway dispatchers to control movements
- electricity to power the whole shebang.
- im not including operators because there would need to be as many operators driving busses instead...its a wash.

I don't know what point it becomes more economical to operate the subway, but there definitely is a crossover point and it would be irresponsible to insist that SEPTA run an entire train when there are only enough people to fill an articulated bus. Ive been on night owls late, late at night that only had a handfull of people for the lons share of the run. That is a good use of resources. Because there aren't a whole lot of people driving about at 3am, the bus moves down the street pretty quickly and isn't much slower than the train. Do I enjoy the experience as much? no, but since I'm paying the freight here, I aplaud SEPTA for using resources well. I'm certanly not willing to pay more for my fare so that mostly empty trains can be operated in the middle of the night.

Please remember, that this is Philadelphia we're talking about, not NYC or Paris or London and, if I'm not very much mistaken, those systems revert to bus operation late at night too. I know that London and Paris do; I can remember trying to find my way back home after staying out too late and missing the last train in Paris and riding the night bus through the red-light district. Wow.

Marte wrote:One must live in darkness to not notice the expansion of suburban Philadelphia. There are Thousands of homes and businesses in the suburbs that were not there a decade ago, and the trend is growing, not diminishing.

A big part of the problem of restoring rail service lies in this development; by its very nature it is not suited to mass transportation. Yes, if all those people commute to center city, then a rail line will serve the commuters well. However all those people will still own cars (possibly multiple cars) because you can't walk to any sort of retail area there. And since so many jobs are moving out to large, suburban campuses, the thrust of commuters are not all going into center city anymore.

I believe that those who are really serious about seeing a revival of commuter rail in Philadelphia will do what is necessary to encourage growth in the city, not in the ever more distant suburbs. The alternative is less mass transit, more congested roads and an even greater dependance on auto travel.

Now, there are some great projects out there that can be started right now with existing right of ways, and they have been mis-managed from the start...the $2B SVM is one such example. But I still believe that the most effective use of scarce capital dollars is investing in sytems that will move the greatest number of people per dollar invested. By that measure, the Roosevelt Bvld. Subway is a more effective project than either SVM or the Rt100 KOP extension (or the Cross County Metro). unfortunately these projects are measured by both their utility and their political strength and that is why we aren't opeing new rail lines.

Alright..enough out of me. Anyone who wants to try living in a wonderful urban neighborhood (no car required!) can email me. There are plenty of wonderful houses served, I am told, by the densest network of trolley lines in North America right here in my neighborhood.

jsc wrote:
I'm not going to be popular with this post, but here goes. Busses are not fundamentally evil.

Except when they are used to replace existing rail lines!---- It is very true that once you have abandoned a rail line, buses will always be more cost effective than the cost of restoring that line. However buses have proven to be a poor substitute for well maintained and intellegently operated rail lines, and I include commuter rail, rapid transit AND streetcar lines.
And the substitution of bus service for train service on the MFSE is a SEPTA product-- both the PRT and PTC ran those trains 24/7.

jsc wrote:A big part of the problem of restoring rail service lies in this development; by its very nature it is not suited to mass transportation

Oh? Of all modes, it is mass transportation. Problem is, SEPTA does not have the concept of "mass" transportation when it comes to regional or any other rail, whereas agencies like NJ Transit and LIRR operate 12-car EMUs that transport 1,000 passengers at a clip, and the MTA NYC subway system operates the vast majority of trains no shorter than 10 cars.

jsc then wrote:Yes, if all those people commute to center city, then a rail line will serve the commuters well. However all those people will still own cars (possibly multiple cars) because you can't walk to any sort of retail area there

That is called missing the point. Rail lines are not intended to replace private transportation but provide relief and an efficient alternative for the areas served, specifically relating to commuting, day-tripping and weekend leisure travel. Not to mention relieve stress—and those who brave such arteries such as the PA Turnpike and the SureKill Expressway in their automobiles daily know what I speak of.

jsc more famously wrote:Busses are not fundamentally evil. There are times that it is preferable to operate bus service in lieu of rail

That is what SEPTA wishes you to believe. Buses, while not utterly evil, are no replacement for rail service.

walt wrote:And the substitution of bus service for train service on the MFSE is a SEPTA product-- both the PRT and PTC ran those trains 24/7.

This is primarily a safety issue. Any crimes that happen in the stations go on SEPTA's record. Any crimes that happens while someone is waiting for a bus go on Philly's record. Yes, the trains should run all night, but it's reasonably excusable.

When construed thus, it sounds like a liability issue instead of a safety issue. By comparison, all of the NYC subway and certain lines of the Long Island Railroad run 24/7 still. If New York's MTA can do it, what does SEPTA have to fear if they follow their example...?

I believe that another reason that EL and Subway service doesen't run 24/7 is that SEPTA wants to save on the money by not keeping the juice on all night for a few trains.