Hoosier State derails outside Chicago 6/8

I don't think this train sounds so bad - the 6am departure out of Indy is early, but for Lafeyette and points north, it's not a bad schedule at all.

btw, news reports say there was only one car, but the timetable says it's supposed to have a cafe car. Has the cafe been removed, or was this an unusual situation?

updrumcorpsguy wrote:btw, news reports say there was only one car, but the timetable says it's supposed to have a cafe car. Has the cafe been removed, or was this an unusual situation?

The cafe car is only available on days that the regular Cardinal operates. Four days a week there is no food service.

Care to explain to me how folks on this forum caused the Hoosier State to be a 'miserable little train'?

"Cause"? Never said that. Contribute? Absolutely. How? Two words: public forum. This ain't Vegas--what's posted here doesn't stay here. It gets indexed. And then spreads into the wider world.

What I find amusing is the habit of so-called railfans of slithering away from their angry words when asked to be held accountable for them. Do we stand by our words or don't we? Do words have power or don't they? Can't have it both ways. Choose one.

mattfels wrote:

Care to explain to me how folks on this forum caused the Hoosier State to be a 'miserable little train'?

"Cause"? Never said that. Contribute? Absolutely. How? Two words: public forum. This ain't Vegas--what's posted here doesn't stay here. It gets indexed. And then spreads into the wider world.

Okay, then how did this forum "contruibute to" the train becoming "miserable." And better yet, what do you mean by "miserable?"

Gee, what part of "public forum" wasn't clear?

mattfels wrote:"Silver lining"? That's easy. How about validation of the anti-Amtrak agenda mindlessly pursued by so many so-called railfans?

On this public forum, these "fans" falsely described this train and its predecessor, the Kentucky Cardinal, as a miserable little train to anyone who would listen. Enough did. And now it is. Mission accomplished.

Why do I insist that Amtrak bashers claim responsiblity? Because words have meaning. Words have power. And this isn't an echo chamber. It is a public forum.

There's an old saying: If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's probably a duck. The Kentucky Cardinal died because it failed in the marketplace, period. Its 12-hour schedule made the trip from Louisville - Chicago TWICE as long as driving. Add to that the lack of amenities - no sleeping car, no meal or lounge service (except on days it ran as part of the Cardinal north of Indianapolis) - the overnight schedule and the use of Horizon equipment and you have a "miserable little train," to quote Mr. Fels.

There seems to be a common thread to these rants that sounds very much like the mindest of the former Texas governor who now occupies the White House: Question the patriotism of anyone who says anything critical of Amtrak, just as the current administration questions the patriotism of anyone who criticizes its policies.

To most of us who participate on this board, Amtrak's status is secondary to our interest in train travel. If Amtrak were to go away tomorrow and be replaced by Virgin Trains or some other operator, we'd ride their trains, assuming the product was decent and safe. We want Amtrak to succeed, and we acknowledge decages of Congressional neglect and - sometimes - abuse, but we root for Amtrak mainly because it's the only game in town.

So we have to take off the rose-colored glasses and be frank at times. Before commenting on a train ask yourself: "Would you want your mother to ride it?" Then you'll have a different perspective.

There's another reason to speak out. Amtrak management loses credibility when it continues to operate failing trains like the Lake Country Limited, Kentucky Cardinal and Pennsylvanian (west of Pittsburgh). It sets itself up for bashing by the people who really matter, i.e. John McCain, James Imhoff.

Everyone knows that with resources spread thin, the savings from killing these losers could be used more productively elsewhere, such as fixing railcars, improving reservation systems, track repairs, etc. So I would argue that the most of the people who offer criticism are in reality more concerned with Amtrak's success than those place blind faith in its management.

mattfels wrote:Gee, what part of "public forum" wasn't clear?

You still didn't define "miserable," but I guess I'm to assume that Amtrak management read this forum and decided that the Hoosier State wasn't worth promoting.

On this public forum, these "fans" falsely described this train and its predecessor, the Kentucky Cardinal, as a miserable little train to anyone who would listen. Enough did. And now it is. Mission accomplished.

Since you referred to the Kentucky Cardinal as its "predecessor," I am to assume that your reference to the Hoosier State is in its 2003/2004 incarnation, and not the one from several years ago.

Therefore, I must point out, Mr. Fels, that in terms of schedule, equipment, and service, the Hoosier State that derailed yesterday is the same "miserable little train" that you claim people "falsely" described as such. Since the nature of the train has not changed, and you yourself have admitted that today's Hoosier State is a "miserable little train," then you have contradicted yourself in claiming that those that criticized the train previously were wrong for doing so.

So, what is it? Was the Hoosier State of October, 2003, when the train was reintroduced (and the "Cardinal," 850/851 from July-October 2003, and the "Kentucky Cardinal" before it) a "miserable little train," or is it not one today? Since you claim that it is, it must have been so in months/years past, in which case people's criticism of said train was clearly not "false."

So, again, I ask you for the third time (since you can't seem to answer the question), how did folks on this forum contribute to that train becoming "miserable." And it would certainly help if you started out by defining what you mean by miserable.

Asked and answered.

mattfels wrote:Asked and answered.

If this is in reference to my question, then, no it wasn't answered. You still haven't defined "miserable," and you still haven't said how this forum changed the nature of that train.

Please don't respond by saying "public forum," because that, in itself, means nothing. Folks on this forum bash nearly all Amtrak trains outside the NEC, therefore one must expect EVERY Amtrak train to carry an average of 46 passengers per trip, since Amtrak is so frequently bashed on here.

The Kentucky Cardinal didn't die because of this forum, it died because of low ridership. This forum didn't cause the low ridership, its lack of services, uncomfortable equipment, and slow schedule caused its low ridership. The fact it, it was a freight train from the beginning, and when the express freight went away, so did that train. Amtrak never cared about that train. If they did, they would have at least givent the train a food service car (12 hours is a long time to go without food).

So, matt, you made two claims in the following statement, one of which contradicts the other, and is therefore untrue, which is it?

On this public forum, these "fans" falsely described this train and its predecessor, the Kentucky Cardinal, as a miserable little train to anyone who would listen. Enough did. And now it is.

Asked and answered. Move along.

Lest we forget, that when inaugurated during 1998, the KEYCARD (yup, I;m of age to have had one of 'em once upon a time) offered Superliner Sleeper service. As I recall, for Sleeping Car passengers, there were "comp" snacks and non-alcoholic beverages. Alcohol was offered for sale as well.

Gil -
Does that mean the sleeping car attendant sold and served alcoholic beverages in his or her car? I haven't heard of that being done on other Amtrak trains.

The Wall Street Journal ,even sent out a reporter to do a Jeffersonville Chicago ride.

mattfels wrote:Asked and answered. Move along.

Matt, just face it. You can dish it out, but you can't take it. You will rip people's posts to shreds when you find inconsistencies in their arguments, or fail to back up their claims with publicly-verifiable sources. However, I have pointed out that your claims in this thread are inconsistent, and you absolutely refuse to clarify things.

You have NOT answered my question. You have made a baseless claim that the folks on this "public forum" caused the Hoosier State to become a "miserable little train." How can you prove that? Do you have publicly available data that shows how many riders were lost because they read this forum before booking their trips? Do you have any evidence at all that the Hoosier State is a one-coach, no food-service train because of the people on this forum?

Now, perhaps SOMEBODY decided not to book a trip on the Kentucky Cardinal solely because of what they read on this forum, but I'd be willing to bet that the number of passengers that were scared away because of reading this message board was nowhere near enough to have made the train viable and justifiable in the first place.

Exhibit A:

http://walmart-blows.com/

Clearly, this public forum, which does nothing but attack Wal-Mart, should have such a negative effect on Wal Mart's sales that they are closing stores left and right. But, they're not. They're still expanding, and still making money.

Exhibit B:

http://microsoftsucks.blogspot.com/

Why is the Windows operating system so popular when computer "fans" like this dedicate their websites to attacking the company?

You see, Matt, the mere existence of a public forum (especially on the internet) in which people say bad things about a particular product or service does not, by itself, kill that product or service.

Since you are so into demanding proof, the burden of proof is on you, Mr. Fels, to substantiate your claims that this forum, somehow, caused the downfall of the Kentucky Cardinal. If you fail to provide this evidence, then all of your whining and urinating and moaning about other people's postings just becomes more irrelevant than ever.

What say ye, Matt? Do you have this data? (Oh, and, you STILL haven't defined "miserable").

Mr. Madison, WADR, have you not been paying attention to the thread?

Look at page 1. Tom Nelligan called the Hoosier State a "sad little train", Metrarider described it as a "dog", and LI Loco suggested "bustitution".

I daresay that Mr. Fels is consistent in the POV that instead of hurling insults at the train, that pressure is put on those responsible for this train's ill status quo towards improving the service, and that those selfsame insults are negative publicity that reinforce the vicious cycle that Amtrak is currently condemned to. Not to mention that the K-Card on the old forum got the same negativity written about it on the old forum (only now retrievable via a search on archive.org assuming that those pages made it into their archive) and most likely on other rail forums.

I suggest that we move on, therefore...