Hartford Line CtDOT New Haven-Springfield - NHHS (Before Launch of Service)

DutchRailnut wrote:even if SLE stays Diesel, CDOT has enough Mafersa's and engines to run springfield line.
as for M-8's keep dreaming.

Well now that it has been made clear by the state and in the press that the initial rollout is 16-17 round trips on the Hartford Line including the existing Amtrak shuttles (instead of 16-17 "commuter train" RTs + the existing Amtrak shuttle schedule) keeping SLE and NHHS equipped will not be difficult after all. And with no additional new stations under construction for the startup date having 3 sets or so of equipment make the rounds won't be "stretching it" time management wise.

DutchRailnut wrote:The New Haven line is saturated, running short trains to stamford takes up a slot and requires another crew, Amtrak crews can not run trains other than Amtrak on MN territory, and neither could any other railroad contracted to run Springfield service.

Then why on earth doesn't the state just do away with the SLE expresses and the Danbury shuttles if they really are an inadequate use of time, space, and resources? MNR and/or CT after all has tried time and time again to explain why Waterbury runs can't be extended to/from Stamford..

Believe me I don't disagree with you having a 3-4 car train using the slot that an 8-10 car train could use (with capacity constraints being what they are) objectively doesn't make sense. But if those trains are not being taken off there has to be a reason for that. Perhaps they want the slots preserved long term for future use as through runs to/from GCT (which alone would warrant a 7-8 car consist AND would eliminate transfers and reverse moves/excessive dwell times/fouling other tracks; for all we know this might be taken into account when planning the Shoreliner replacement fleet purchase.)

As for M-8's they still have not tested east of New Haven for several reasons one being that Cab/atc/ptc does not comply with NORAC rules.
a fact MN knew from first cars being assembled in Japan, the answer was NORAC will change their rules.
Well NORAC is not gone change rules on several railroads just because little ol MN does not want to comply with rules.
Testing on 25Kv should not be much of problem, but getting Amtrak crews to comply with door operation and regulations will take a miracle.
MN does not want to shop a M-8 train just because Amtrak crews break safety seals etc .

Wouldn't any cars marked for SLE service be 100% owned by the state (i.e. 2 CT owned cars per pair instead of a 1 MTA owned and 1 CT owned car per pair) and therefore not necessarily under MNR's belt? I don't recall anything pertaining to the likelihood of M-8s used on SLE being pooled with the NHL fleet.

As for NORAC, etc. MNR doesn't have to comply with anything NORAC related if they're not going to be running on Amtrak owned tracks, right? MNR wouldn't be operating any M-8s (or any other train for that matter) beyond State Street anyway. If the state keeps saying they'll be used at some point on SLE let's not say they'll never run there. If the cars need to be modified ( could they even be modified?) for use on Amtrak rails well they'll have to do that, but if they're willing to then power to them.

If Hartford Line service ridership and expansion really starts to take off post-2020 and any SLE expansion comes to fruition there may end up not being enough diesel equipment for both them and SLE unless CT can find any other 2nd hand engines and coaches. And until then the Geeps and P40s better get their top deck overhaul soon to limit the need for any spares. I don't know what things are like on SLE nowadays but a number of years ago breakdowns were a big problem.

there are no mixed pairs, I gave numbering several times, but all cars are equipped same, and the 24 cars technically bought for SLE will just run in pool just like all other cars.
both the cars in each pair are either owned by CDOT or MN but never two owners in same pair.
now with over 395 cars in service out of 405 we still have a bunch of older cars running, does that give you a clue on car availability for SLE ???


CDOT Cars
Car Type Number Series Quantity
A/B Married Pair 9100 to 9199 100
A/B Married Pair 9300 to 9399 100
A/B Married Pair 9500 to 9519 20
pairs with B car to become bar cars maybe ??? :
A/B Café Car Pair 9530 / 9631 2
A/B Café Car Pair 9532 / 9633 2
A/B Café Car Pair 9534 / 9635 2
A/B Café Car Pair 9536 / 9637 2
A/B Café Car Pair 9538 / 9639 2
A/B Café Car Pair 9540 / 9641 2
A/B Café Car Pair 9542 / 9643 2

Single Cars 9560 to 9590 16 – Even Numbers Only


CDOT Cars bought for possible SLE service (still pool)
Car Type--------- Number Series- total
A/B Married Pair 9600 to 9623 24
Total CDOT Cars: 274

MNR Cars
Car Type ---------Number Series Quantity
A/B Married Pair 9200 to 9299 100
A/B Married Pair 9400 to 9421 22
Single Cars 9460 to 9476 9 - Even Numbers Only
Total Cars: 131

DutchRailnut wrote:there are no mixed pairs, I gave numbering several times, but all cars are equipped same, and the 24 cars technically bought for SLE will just run in pool just like all other cars.
both the cars in each pair are either owned by CDOT or MN but never two owners in same pair.

Wait so.. there will technically be MNR trains on SLE ?? Sorry I couldn't resist..

now with over 395 cars in service out of 405 we still have a bunch of older cars running, does that give you a clue on car availability for SLE ???

Don't look-uh-me I didn't say to not order even MORE cars It could explain why those SLE express runs from Stamford to New Haven are still in the mix instead of an 8-10 car MU train.. At least it's something.

But at any rate if NHHS and SLE are both going to share the same pool of non-MNR diesel equipment CDOT better be able to have a plan on acquiring any additional locomotives and coaches. If Hartford Line service really takes off ridership-wise after it starts operation equipment needs will need to be met there. And if the SLE schedule is expanded and service is extended beyond New London they will need to have their needs met as well. In which case eliminating any through service to/from Stamford likely could be a necessity as it would put less of a strain on the equipment pool by not having any 2 train sets traverse another 80 miles round trip twice per weekday.

CDOT acquired 38 Mafersa coaches ??? and is not even close to using half of them, the springfield line will see maybe 4 sets in addition to Amtrak trains.
as for diesels CDOT has 6 P42's and 6 or so GP40ph-2's plus whatever Amtrak ads to mix.

They bought 33 of them. I don't know what happened to the other 5 coaches. But with 33 cars (10 of them being cab cars) you can get at most 10 trainsets with 3 cars and 1 set with 4 cars or 8 trainsets with 7 4-car setd and 1 5-car set. However most SLE sets (or at least half of them) use 4 cars per set. So if SLE needs at most/roughly 16 cars for 4 sets that leaves 17 cars for 4 sets for NHHS. If SLE requires 4 sets on a weekday and NHHS needs 4 sets that's going to start pushing the limits of the existing fleet. And if demand outpaces supply soon after service begins (being in the I-91 corridor it's very possible) there will very likely be a need for more coaches.

Now if all 12 locomotives do get their needed overhaul (if some of them haven't been worked on already) there will be 8 locos for the sets and 4 spares that will be in tip top operational shape. If there were enough cars for 10 sets of at least 5 cars each (I believe that's the max they can pull/push) with 1 spare for each line that would be adequately sufficient for the foreseeable. Because if the risk of breaking down is very minimal having 1 loco on standby should be enough. And I doubt ridership levels will warrant more than 5 cars per train for awhile. But then again this is the I-91 corridor (New Haven-Hartford-Springfield) and for the first time there will be a dedicated commuter rail service with more than 2x the current shuttle frequencies, lower fares, and plenty of *presumably free* parking. Why shouldn't one think that ridership levels could match or exceed 5 cars of seating per train? And just wait until Hamden, North Haven, Newington, West Hartford, and Enfield come on line. That'll be the REAL stress test for whatever sized fleet is utilized by then.

It's a starter schedule. The 32 trains per day max projected schedule is going to be a slow scale-up we won't see until 2020. So they'll be fine on rolling stock the rest of this decade if both lines stay push-pull.

The test, as you say, is what happens after that. Who knows...by that point MNRR will be aggressively purging all generations of Shoreliners for MLV's. CDOT won't be at a loss for a supply of cheap coaches. Amtrak will be draining the option orders on its Charger diesels, which if the trailing options are tapped will replace every P42 and flood the diesel loco aftermarket with stuff that'll probably--because of their sheer numbers--be pretty economical to rebuild. And we'll be much closer to Penn Station Access coming into focus--in terms of details of the service plan, funding for the infill stations, more accurate projections of # of daily slots available and ridership. And I certainly don't see how the demand pan- New Haven Line is going to do anything but keep outstripping the supply of cars. So it's pretty likely if that plan is a-go that there's going to have to be an "M8A" supplemental car order of exact lookalike/workalikes to buff out the reserves. In which case the rationing with SLE becomes a moot point.


If that's still a consideration. For all the overconfident proclamations on this sub-forum over the last 5 years about how M8's will NEVER or M8's will ALWAYS trawl Shore Line East...there is still no final decision on that. Hell, the employees in-the-know have routinely contradicted each other on that. That's how useless the available information has been all this time...the story changes weekly and different things get told by different "in-the-know" people to other "in-the-know" people. It is an unresolved debate. Publicly and internally.

But it's not a decision that is under a ton of time pressure to resolve because SLE's short-term future is beholden to waiting for the coming construction disruptions to the CT River Bridge to run their course. Can't increase the New London schedules or add more infill stops east of Old Saybrook until that big capacity limiter is taken care of. Until that project's done in 2018 or whatever they're going to have slack capacity on the fleet. And won't have to consider the cost ramifications of their next bump in wholesale diesel costs until every SLE train of the day is capacity-unimpeded to run all the way to NLN and the Hartford Line starts creeping up 20, 25, 30 trains per day. Then you're probably gonna see a foot put down about using exclusively M8's east of New Haven and transferring the whole of the diesel fleet north. But that's like 5 years from now. The M8's still aren't all accepted into service yet. There is absolutely no reason, no pressure, to resolve this question in January 2015.

This is not good news.

"Malloy: Amtrak Mismanages New Haven-Springfield Rail Project"
http://www.courant.com/news/connecticut ... story.html
Hartford Courant - 6/17/15

Details can be found in Governor Malloy's letter to U.S. DOT Secretary:
http://www.courant.com/hc-pdf-malloy-am ... story.html

According to the letter the Hartford Line might not be ready to open until late 2018.

Leverage ploy. It was known from Day 1 that Springfield Line was the backwater of the NEC branches, and Amtrak expressed its own concerns 6 years ago about the budget being adequate for the work involved. It's awfully disingenuous of Malloy to be shocked...SHOCKED!...at such old news. Now they're talking about seizing ownership? Yeah, right. They probably got very few private operators interested in the RFP and everyone is now realizing that it's Amtrak's contract to name its price on, since nobody else wants to bid competitively to be subservient to Amtrak dispatch and Amtrak being the arbiter on track work. Clearly CDOT wants to rattle the cage to get some greater interest in that operating RFP to drive the price down. They also seem overly confident of being able to "Metro North" all over Amtrak's business, as if that's their divine right. Conveniently forgetting that they themselves chafe with the MTA over New Haven Line control more than Amtrak does.

Second, north-of-Hartford is still unfunded and needs lots of fed help. So they've clearly got a vested interest in trying to pump the FTA for more money, faster, at next available opportunity.


I'm not sure poking the dynamite monkey is the smartest way to go about that, but it's not like these amateurs are smart enough to realize that. Ultimately, it's a manufactured crisis. Let's just hope it doesn't blow up in their faces.

Gov Malloy needs to get the I-84 rebuild tied down and designed before anything can be done on
Amtrak's Hartford viaduct and station.
Also fund the ACSES install on the New Haven line!

F-line to Dudley via Park wrote:Ultimately, it's a manufactured crisis. Let's just hope it doesn't blow up in their faces.

Why not? At this point letting things go awry could be the only way a lesson can be learned and could be enough of a motivator to get the job done right (think Walk Bridge getting stuck after over 20 years of deferred maintenance and the almost immediate decision to replace it ASAP).

Backshophoss wrote:Gov Malloy needs to get the I-84 rebuild tied down and designed before anything can be done on
Amtrak's Hartford viaduct and station.
Also fund the ACSES install on the New Haven line!

Hartford's full-high is funded and designed for construction so they're fine for start of service. Viaduct may need some emergency repairs as-needed so it doesn't topple over while they're waiting for 84mageddon and its potential impacts on the rail alignment sort themselves out...but that's CDOT's exclusive problem.

The only unfunded stuff is the DT and major rebuild work north-of-Hartford (excluding Springfield Union Station), Windsor + Windsor Locks station upgrades, construction starts for Enfield station (design is funded and progressing on-schedule, though), and the Springfield layover yard (I'm assuming because it's CDOT/Amtrak co-tenancy and CDOT is primary site designer that feds will be picking up the tab on the layover). And then the CT River Bridge rehab is a completely separate project not included in the scope of NHHS at all; that effort has to be mounted entirely separately. Rest of the stations are funded, though the North Haven infill will trail start of service by couple years.


It's just hilarious that Amtrak warned them in 2009 of exactly this cost overrun potential with the track and signaling replacements, and all of a sudden the nukes come out this week. Just as Malloy is embroiled in a budget deficit fight that's making his approval ratings take a gruesome hit. Subtlety not your strong suit, Gov.?

It'd be doubly hilarious if the busway overlap area is where the work slowdown and Amtrak cost spike was at its worst, since that whole farce was Malloy's baby and endless source of overheated hype from his office.

Discussion of Amtrak operations and Springfield Line improvements as they relate to Amtrak: Springfield Line Upgrade in CT

NHHS Construction Updates

Construction Update: Town of Berlin

Beginning on Friday, September 11th and concluding by Sunday, September 13th, there will be construction activity on the rail line between Surrey Lane and Camels Back Road. Work will include the replacement/rehabilitation of culverts. The work will occur during the 32-hour period beginning at 8PM on Friday and concluding at 8AM on Sunday. Train service in this area will be suspended during this period. While no vehicular traffic impacts are anticipated, there will be construction noise throughout this period and temporary lighting to support overnight work in the area.

Please note that this schedule is subject to change.

Future updates on the status and location of construction activities will be provided on the NHHS Rail Program website at http://www.nhhsrail.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;, Facebook, Twitter and by email. To receive email updates, please register on the NHHS Rail Program website.

Honestly, the bussing for nearly 18 months is going to kill ridership and will be hard to recover from. I was talking to some of the drivers recently and they said ridership is very light.

Steamboat Willie wrote:Honestly, the bussing for nearly 18 months is going to kill ridership and will be hard to recover from. I was talking to some of the drivers recently and they said ridership is very light.

Sounds like enough riders would simply prefer to not ride a bus on I-91 at all and bear with the meager train schedule.


But to be honest has NHV-SPG ridership ever been even somewhat significant? The reduction in Shuttle frequencies however many years ago (I believe there were at once 9 RTs) certainly hasn't helped draw any new riders other than those connecting to/from Regionals. Having a separate commuter rail service with at least 11 RTs would add more commuting options and therefore conceivably boost ridership. With the Shuttle schedules being what they are I would personally be hesitant to commute on them every day. And if you're going from NHV to HFD in the morning and back in the evening the schedule makes it practically impossible to commute by train.


When the Port Jervis line was shut down after Irene a lot of those customers came back after using the substitute bus service. Not all of them, but most. And MNR anticipated that. NHV-HFD-SPG is a whole other game. It's a region that should have had proper commuter rail service decades ago. The fact that SLE came into existence more than 25 years before Central CT will finally get its own commuter rail is astounding.