Harlem Transfer Co. - How was the yard operated?

I am looking for any information I can find related to this freight terminal operation that was built in about 1896 by the Erie, Delaware, Lackawanna and Western railroad to serve freight customers in a small section of the bronx, located on the Harlem River in NYC. This operation had no land connection to any railroad. It was totally self-contained, with freight cars being exchanged into and out of the treminal by carfloat from Hoboken, NJ. There were actually quite a few of these little terminals at one time in NYC and the this type of operation existed for nearly 100 yrs in some places. Railroad carfloats were a common site in New York harbor at one time, and still may exist to some extent.

The Harlem Transfer was very unique in that it was desined with an oval shaped freight house surrounded by two loops of track, the inside loop having curves of only 90 ft radius. The inner loop served the freight house while the outer loop of slightly larger radius (104') served as the yard lead to service the inner loop, plus access all the other tracks and the carfloat bridge. This switching in the round was a new idea, one so good that it was repeated in NY in several other places, particularly the CNJ Bronx terminal nearby.

I am associated with a group of people interested in finding more about the history of the Harlem Transfer, and how it was operated. There are a few photos but no one today knows much at all about how it was operated, both at the terminal in Hoboken where the carfloats were loaded and the Harlem Transfer. A few are building models of this as it fascinates more than a few people who are intersted in switching, particularly "switching in the round" as some of these little terminals did.

Any information on this terminal, or leads to same, or info on other New York harbor freight terminals would be greatly appreciated.

sandyriverman wrote:I am looking for any information I can find related to this freight terminal operation that was built in about 1896 by the Erie, Delaware, Lackawanna and Western railroad to serve freight customers in a small section of the bronx, located on the Harlem River in NYC. This operation had no land connection to any railroad. It was totally self-contained, with freight cars being exchanged into and out of the treminal by carfloat from Hoboken, NJ. There were actually quite a few of these little terminals at one time in NYC and the this type of operation existed for nearly 100 yrs in some places. Railroad carfloats were a common site in New York harbor at one time, and still may exist to some extent.

The Harlem Transfer was very unique in that it was desined with an oval shaped freight house surrounded by two loops of track, the inside loop having curves of only 90 ft radius. The inner loop served the freight house while the outer loop of slightly larger radius (104') served as the yard lead to service the inner loop, plus access all the other tracks and the carfloat bridge. This switching in the round was a new idea, one so good that it was repeated in NY in several other places, particularly the CNJ Bronx terminal nearby.

I am associated with a group of people interested in finding more about the history of the Harlem Transfer, and how it was operated. There are a few photos but no one today knows much at all about how it was operated, both at the terminal in Hoboken where the carfloats were loaded and the Harlem Transfer. A few are building models of this as it fascinates more than a few people who are intersted in switching, particularly "switching in the round" as some of these little terminals did.

Any information on this terminal, or leads to same, or info on other New York harbor freight terminals would be greatly appreciated.

This website pertains to the histories of: of Brooklyn, Queens, Staten Island, the Bronx & Manhattan, NY.

http://www.trainweb.org/bedt/index.html

Joe

sandyriverman wrote:I am looking for any information I can find related to this freight terminal operation that was built in about 1896 by the Erie, Delaware, Lackawanna and Western railroad to serve freight customers in a small section of the bronx, located on the Harlem River in NYC. This operation had no land connection to any railroad. It was totally self-contained, with freight cars being exchanged into and out of the treminal by carfloat from Hoboken, NJ. There were actually quite a few of these little terminals at one time in NYC and the this type of operation existed for nearly 100 yrs in some places. Railroad carfloats were a common site in New York harbor at one time, and still may exist to some extent.

The Harlem Transfer was very unique in that it was desined with an oval shaped freight house surrounded by two loops of track, the inside loop having curves of only 90 ft radius. The inner loop served the freight house while the outer loop of slightly larger radius (104') served as the yard lead to service the inner loop, plus access all the other tracks and the carfloat bridge. This switching in the round was a new idea, one so good that it was repeated in NY in several other places, particularly the CNJ Bronx terminal nearby.

I am associated with a group of people interested in finding more about the history of the Harlem Transfer, and how it was operated. There are a few photos but no one today knows much at all about how it was operated, both at the terminal in Hoboken where the carfloats were loaded and the Harlem Transfer. A few are building models of this as it fascinates more than a few people who are intersted in switching, particularly "switching in the round" as some of these little terminals did.

Any information on this terminal, or leads to same, or info on other New York harbor freight terminals would be greatly appreciated.

Lots of photos & info at this website: http://members.trainweb.com/bedt/indloco/errhs.html

Hi, Thanks for the info and the link. I am already familiar with this site. Phil has put a lot of work into it. Unfortunately it does nothing to tell anyone how the transfer terminal operated. This is a new kind of switching compared to working a regular yard. It is fascinating trying to figure out how it was worked. Several people I know are building models of it but will lack the knowhow to operate it the way the real one was operated.

SR

sandyriverman wrote:Hi, Thanks for the info and the link. I am already familiar with this site. Phil has put a lot of work into it. Unfortunately it does nothing to tell anyone how the transfer terminal operated. This is a new kind of switching compared to working a regular yard. It is fascinating trying to figure out how it was worked. Several people I know are building models of it but will lack the knowhow to operate it the way the real one was operated.

SR

I've seen the speculation of how these yards operated on other forums.

As a former BEDT engineer I can tell you none of it is correct.

The only one who can give you the correct information is someone that worked in those yards (Conductor, brakeman, yardmaster or engineer).

Joe

Joe, Thanks for your input. I agree that only some of the people who actually worked the Transfer really know how they did things. Tony Koester, Editor of Model Railroad Planning, is building part of the Nickel Plate Road. He has talked extensively with men who actually ran the full sized railroad. That is the only way one can find that information. Unfortunately I don't know of any first hand accounts of the HT. I still hoping to find someone, someday.

SR

Harlem Transfer was part of the DL&W. Not the Erie. When the two roads merged the H.T. yard at 135th street was shut down. For years it was a trash dump. Now there's a storage place there. Erie's transfer yard up the Harlem River by Yankee Stadium was in use into the mid 70s and the gantry crane still stands.

There is a picture of Harlem Transfer loco #1 on George Elwood's Fallen Flag site. Other than that picture there isn't much that I've ever found about it.

It does not show up on the 1900 15 minute USGS topo maps.

bingdude wrote:Harlem Transfer was part of the DL&W. Not the Erie. When the two roads merged the H.T. yard at 135th street was shut down. For years it was a trash dump. Now there's a storage place there. Erie's transfer yard up the Harlem River by Yankee Stadium was in use into the mid 70s and the gantry crane still stands.

There is a picture of Harlem Transfer loco #1 on George Elwood's Fallen Flag site. Other than that picture there isn't much that I've ever found about it.

It does not show up on the 1900 15 minute USGS topo maps.

There are some pictures of #1 on this site.

http://members.trainweb.com/bedt/indloc ... ocomotives

Joe

I apologize for the incorrect name of the railroad that built the Harlem Transfer. The Erie, CNJ and B&O all paid for the use of the HT for a bit of time until other terminals were opened but the DL&W built it.

Joe, from the job you described that you had it seems that you are generally familiar with car float operations. Let me ask a question of you.

These terminals were operated as businesses and as such had to make a profit. The way to make as much profit as possible was to do the work as efficiently as it could be done. In reading first hand accounts of operating switching yards, the men that did so alway talked about the methods they used to work a certain yard, so that it could be worked as efficiently, and with as few moves, as possible in order to get as much work done in a given time as they could.

I would think that, looking at these marine terminals, that the carfloats would have been loaded in Hoboken in such a way that would expedite the switching at the terminals, as much as they possibly could. I don't think the carfloats would have been just loaded at random. I certainly expect that consideration was given to weight and balance of the carfloat, but suspect that consideration was given to how they would be unloaded and reloaded at the marine terminal too. Of the people I have asked that question, several have commented that some cars had to be loaded on the carfloat so that they could be unloaded from one particular side of the car. Since HT had no provision for turning cars I can see that that was important but suspect other things were considered too.

Can you give your thoughts on that.

SR

sandyriverman wrote:I would think that, looking at these marine terminals, that the carfloats would have been loaded in Hoboken in such a way that would expedite the switching at the terminals, as much as they possibly could.

The crews at the Jersey RRs loaded the floats as the cars were lined up in the float yard.

They were never loaded in a particular order as the crews had other floats to pull and load and didn't have time to play around drilling cars for a specific terminal.

I don't think the carfloats would have been just loaded at random. I certainly expect that consideration was given to weight and balance of the carfloat, but suspect that consideration was given to how they would be unloaded and reloaded at the marine terminal too.

Balance wasn't a problem as the float could handle a lot of weight on one side.

Usually the middle was finished first. Than cars were straddled on the left side (looking at the float from shore). Than the right was finished off. Than back to the left to finish that side.

When New York Dock Ry took over BEDT, that's when we loaded cars for specific NYD yards (Fulton, Atlantic or Bush).

Of the people I have asked that question, several have commented that some cars had to be loaded on the carfloat so that they could be unloaded from one particular side of the car. Since HT had no provision for turning cars I can see that was important but suspect other things were considered too.

As stated above the crew didn't have time to wye the cars. Also they wouldn't know which way the car should be loaded.

I've pulled and loaded floats at BEDT Kent Ave., Pidgeon St., The Navy Yard and NYD Fulton, Atlantic & Bush.

The info is pretty close, but there are always exceptions.

Joe

The little I can add about the Harlem Transfer is from personal observation. From the windows of passing Penn Central commuter trains I saw the black 44-tonner center cab locomotive used by (and lettered for) the Harlem Transfer in the early 1970s. It was still in operation.

As for the Erie's Bronx yard, called 149th Street I think, it too was supplied by a tug and car floats from Jersey City. New York Central people who worked in the nearby Bronx Terminal Market yard have told me there was no track connection to the Erie yard. It was a dead end yard. As was the Harlem Transfer.

I have read some articles about the Erie yard in old Erie Railroad employee magazines. It got a diesel pretty early, as I recall, and in the 1920s Erie was pleased with the way the traffic was growing. They also had to use a tug with a cutdown smoke stack because of the low-clearance bridges across the Harlem River.

I think the Erie Lackawanna Historical Society publication The Diamond had a feature article about the Harlem Transfer operation some years back. Also Railpace had a multi-part series about the Bronx carfloat yards along the Harlem River. These were published years ago, in the 1980s probably, but you might be able to find them on Ebay.

......."The crews at the Jersey RRs loaded the floats as the cars were lined up in the float yard"........


I guess I didn't put that part of my question very well or wasn't thinking well about it myself at that moment.

Yes, I would expect that the crews that loaded the carfloats would have taken the cars as they were on the tracks. I think a better way of putting it would have been to ask if the crews working the switching at the loading yards, might have arranged the cars in a particular order, according to a switching list, when they set them on the tracks for loading.

I have read quite a bit re the Harlem Terminal about some cars having to be unloaded from one side. HT had no way to turn cars so that would have been a major issue for them. Loading the car and taking it to be turned would have cost money. Could the crews working the switching at the loading yards have also arranged those one-sided cars also?

CNJ's Bronx terminal, a couple blocks south had a wye but HT had no turning facility so this must have been thought about and dealt with somehow.

Boy, I really wish there was some first hand accounts from people who worked the various pieces of this puzzle.

SRM

sandyriverman wrote:......."The crews at the Jersey RRs loaded the floats as the cars were lined up in the float yard"........

I guess I didn't put that part of my question very well or wasn't thinking well about it myself at that moment.

Yes, I would expect that the crews that loaded the carfloats would have taken the cars as they were on the tracks. I think a better way of putting it would have been to ask if the crews working the switching at the loading yards, might have arranged the cars in a particular order, according to a switching list, when they set them on the tracks for loading.

The switch crews would have switched the cars to the float yard for a specific terminal (Harlem, Bush, BEDT, NYD etc,) but not setup the cars in any kind of order.

......."I have read quite a bit re the Harlem Terminal about some cars having to be unloaded from one side. HT had no way to turn cars so that would have been a major issue for them. Loading the car and taking it to be turned would have cost money. Could the crews working the switching at the loading yards have also arranged those one-sided cars also?

The short answer is no. If nothing could be done at HT then the car would have to be returned to Jersey for turning.

CNJ's Bronx terminal, a couple blocks south had a wye but HT had no turning facility so this must have been thought about and dealt with somehow.

Boy, I really wish there was some first hand accounts from people who worked the various pieces of this puzzle.

SRM

That would be nice.

Joe

JoeRailRoad wrote:

sandyriverman wrote:......I have read quite a bit re the Harlem Terminal about some cars having to be unloaded from one side. HT had no way to turn cars so that would have been a major issue for them. Loading the car and taking it to be turned would have cost money. Could the crews working the switching at the loading yards have also arranged those one-sided cars also?

The short answer is no. If nothing could be done at HT then the car would have to be returned to Jersey for turning.

The trainweb website to which the links were posted is really awesome. Having spent some time browsing the site I hope my comments seem more like observation than speculation!

At any rate, the yard maps indicate that there were no private sidings. Just team tracks. Paired tracks with wide roadways in between. Served first by horse-drawn teams and later by trucks.

Obviously a consignee could access either side of a car depending on what track the car was placed on. There would be no need to return the car to Jersey to have it turned. Having attended several of Tom Flagg's presentations I'm sure that did happen occasionally at some terminals though I can't say which ones offhand.

Some new pictures of Cramer Coal has been posted on Phil's Harlem Transfer website.

http://members.trainweb.com/bedt/indloc ... l#Business

Joe