Hampton Roads/Norfolk/Newport News NE Regional Service

It depends, in part, on what one means by "Suffolk". If you mean the downtown of the old city (before it merged with surrounding county), it's a bit grim and depressing these days (which may be why some folks would like a stop there, as an economic development tool). Bowers Hill is near the Suffolk/Chesapeake border, and would serve both Suffolk (the newer expanded version) and Chesapeake. As Mr. Arlington notes, it has very good highway access.

I took the train to NFK a few months ago using the new service and from what I saw through the window when we passed Suffolk, the area on the other side of the tracks to the south of downtown didn't look too appealing. It doesn't mean that a station shouldn't be built there, and yes, it can be used as an economic development tool.

The Bowers Hill Station would probably do well. If the route is reactivated that connects Petersburg to Downtown Richmond, then the service would do really well because you are connecting one metropolitan area with another, and many of the office jobs would be within walking distance of a train station. There are probably a lot of people who live in the Hampton Roads area and work in Richmond, or vice versa.

Amtrak press release today.

NEW NORFOLK SERVICE GROWING AS IT MARKS SIX-MONTH ANNIVERSARY
WASHINGTON – The Virginia Department of Rail and Public Transportation (DRPT)
and Amtrak announce more than 70,000 passengers have traveled on the passenger rail service
route between Washington, D.C., and Norfolk.

http://www.amtrak.com/ccurl/24/720/New- ... 13-061.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Technically, six months would be December 12, 2012 to June 11, 2013. Or are they counting December-May? We'll know better when the May Monthly Performance Report comes out soon. Based on the trend, ridership on the new train should have surpassed 70,000 before May 31st.

jstolberg wrote:Amtrak press release today.

Technically, six months would be December 12, 2012 to June 11, 2013. Or are they counting December-May? We'll know better when the May Monthly Performance Report comes out soon. Based on the trend, ridership on the new train should have surpassed 70,000 before May 31st.

I expect they are counting the totals from December through May. The total for the FY to date for the WAS-NFK train was 59,850 in the April report with 13,968 for the month of April. Agree, that unless there was a falloff, should have hit 72K or 73K by end of May. OTOH, sequestration may have cut into the number of DOD related day trips from NFK to DC.

Still, 70K riders, even if it includes the other Virginia stops for the NFK train, is a good start for a train with a 4:50 AM departure on weekdays. And not all that much better on weekends. My guess is that about 40K of these passengers are from the NFK station (for 5.5 months). Will be interesting to see what the annual passenger numbers will be for NFK in 4-5 years with 3 daily trains and then the years after that when/if The Tide LRT is extended to VA Beach. Will the Norfolk station be able to handle 400K or 500K passengers a year?

afiggatt wrote:

jstolberg wrote:Amtrak press release today.

Technically, six months would be December 12, 2012 to June 11, 2013. Or are they counting December-May? We'll know better when the May Monthly Performance Report comes out soon. Based on the trend, ridership on the new train should have surpassed 70,000 before May 31st.

I expect they are counting the totals from December through May. The total for the FY to date for the WAS-NFK train was 59,850 in the April report with 13,968 for the month of April. Agree, that unless there was a falloff, should have hit 72K or 73K by end of May. OTOH, sequestration may have cut into the number of DOD related day trips from NFK to DC.

Still, 70K riders, even if it includes the other Virginia stops for the NFK train, is a good start for a train with a 4:50 AM departure on weekdays. And not all that much better on weekends. My guess is that about 40K of these passengers are from the NFK station (for 5.5 months). Will be interesting to see what the annual passenger numbers will be for NFK in 4-5 years with 3 daily trains and then the years after that when/if The Tide LRT is extended to VA Beach. Will the Norfolk station be able to handle 400K or 500K passengers a year?

How much of that was existing VA based travel? I'd like to see the actual station to station report when it comes out.

afiggatt wrote:Will be interesting to see what the annual passenger numbers will be for NFK in 4-5 years with 3 daily trains and then the years after that when/if The Tide LRT is extended to VA Beach. Will the Norfolk station be able to handle 400K or 500K passengers a year?

I don't see station capacity at Harbor Park being a problem because "growth" will be naturally accommodated in ways that don't put acute loads at Harbor Park (except for Parking...more on that below).

As things grow, Norfolk will not need a bigger station because:
- At Harbor Park, new "waiting room" demand will be spread throughout the day as additional frequencies, not by fatter or fuller consists
- Across the metro area, new "waiting room" supply will be added at (and demand will be diverted to) new stations at Bowers Hill, Suffolk and the "park and ride" Newport News stations
- Worst case, people will sit in their cars until the train starts boarding (as at many commuter rail stations in foul weather).

However, I would be worried about parking. While "waiting room" demand can be spread throughout the day (passenger bottoms come and go), car parking cannot. Cars get left behind by all those departures and you get a midday peak (between 10am and 2pm) and a midweek peak (usually Wednesday-Thursday), just like Richmond Staples Mill. At some point early in Norfolk's growth curve, I'd expect to see the lot filling up by the time the second train of the day has left and not easing up until the first "return" train has arrived.

In the short term, though, it shouldn't be a problem, and in the medium term those cars will go to Bowers Hill and the new Newport News stations (both "freeway accessible" and so natural places that cars will self-divert if word gets out that Harbor Park is tight on parking). And then long term, somebody's going to need structured parking. Happily they have the big parking lot footprint to accommodate it, and maybe some Transit Oriented Development too

Incidentally, does anyone happen to know if there are any trains that currently turn at Richmond that could be extended to or started from NFK instead? I'm hoping somebody has already inferred this from either from what they see laying over in Richmond or by a close reading of the timetable. Anyone?

Arlington wrote:Incidentally, does anyone happen to know if there are any trains that currently turn at Richmond that could be extended to or started from NFK instead? I'm hoping somebody has already inferred this from either from what they see laying over in Richmond or by a close reading of the timetable. Anyone?

Yes....although I'm not sold on the options.

ThirdRail7 wrote:

Arlington wrote:Incidentally, does anyone happen to know if there are any trains that currently turn at Richmond that could be extended to or started from NFK instead? I'm hoping somebody has already inferred this from either from what they see laying over in Richmond or by a close reading of the timetable. Anyone?

Yes....although I'm not sold on the options.

Thanks...how bad is it? I'm thinking that if you're Virginia and want to get more trains that you can run to/from NFK, you have a lot of bad options at this point (are there any good ones?)
- Send Richmond trains to NFK at odd or operationally difficult times
- Add capacity to the Long Bridge so more can come south from WAS throughout the day
- Add a layover slot at NFK so you can start two each morning (not cheap or fast, but likely cheaper/faster than the Long Bridge option, above)

Arlington wrote:

ThirdRail7 wrote:

Arlington wrote:Incidentally, does anyone happen to know if there are any trains that currently turn at Richmond that could be extended to or started from NFK instead? I'm hoping somebody has already inferred this from either from what they see laying over in Richmond or by a close reading of the timetable. Anyone?

Yes....although I'm not sold on the options.

Thanks...how bad is it? I'm thinking that if you're Virginia and want to get more trains that you can run to/from NFK, you have a lot of bad options at this point (are there any good ones?)

Well, you can see what times 84 and 86 leave RVR. Imagine adding a few hours to NFK on to that. 86 makes 174 look like a late departure. 84 is not as bad, but now look at 93 and 85 as your return trains and add additional time for RVR-NFK. They all spell late arrivals in NFK and early departures. For those reasons, using the RVR starts is not that appealing to me. However, assuming 185/184 become LYH/ROA service, I'm not seeing a ton of options for balancing and protecting rush hour. Timing a NFK start to fill 186's WAS-NYP slot is the last shot before you get into the rush hour trains, but what do you send down there? The only option is 141 which is reasonable in terms of scheduling, but a tough balance.

Here's an interesting alternative: A Thruway Bus that starts at NFK at 11:00am (clear of rush hour and counter the AM rush anyway), NPN at 11:40am, and meets the Carolinians by turning at RSM at 1:30pm--right in the middle of the hour-long window between the two daily Carolinians.

Northbound, this would nicely fill the gap between today's 9:15am and 5:20pm Northbound departures from NPN and give a nice "morning-noon-night" pattern. The Northbound (80) picks up at RSM at 2:00pm, gets to WAS before 5pm and to NYP before 9pm.

Meanwhile, The Southbound Carolinian (79) discharges its passengers at RVR at 1:00pm. Their bus would depart at 2pm and get them back to Hampton Roads via a "reverse rush" trip to NPN by 4pm ish and NFK by 5pm ish, which as a "home in time for dinner" schedule nicely fills the gap between today's NPN arrivals (at 11:40am and 6:35pm) and is a great alternative to the train to NFK which arrives at nearly 9pm.

Time for Amtrak Virginia or VADRPT to run another bus!

* Please overlook how Virginia would be "freeloading" on the Carolinian

I've wondered for some time why a bus was not used as an interim for a third frequency to NPN. One potential problem (especially if the bus originates at NFK) given the strong ridership on the route, is that bus could be full leaving its originating station (NFK), especially on busy travel days, with no room for additional riders at NPN or WBG. But it's a worthy idea, nonetheless. Query: how is timekeeping on the NB Carolinian these days? My impression is that it's not too bad.

One small correction, Mr. Arlington: Richmond Main Street is RVM, not RSM.

Station Aficionado wrote: But it's a worthy idea, nonetheless. Query: how is timekeeping on the NB Carolinian these days? My impression is that it's not too bad.
One small correction, Mr. Arlington: Richmond Main Street is RVM, not RSM.

Thanks! Actually, let's correct us both (or double-correct me) I was going for Staples Mill = RVR (Richmond Virginia Road?), although its an interesting question whether that bus has time to do both Main Street (RVM...Richmond Virginia Main...gotta remember that) and RVR.

Station Aficionado wrote:One potential problem (especially if the bus originates at NFK) given the strong ridership on the route, is that bus could be full leaving its originating station (NFK), especially on busy travel days, with no room for additional riders at NPN or WBG. But it's a worthy idea, nonetheless.

When a little over-crowded, my instinct is to raise prices, pocket the profits and worry later about how I diverted price-sensitive customers.

When a lot over-crowded, well, the bus companies solved this a long time ago: run extra sections "express." Never sell local tickets on the NFK-WBG stretch (you're not giving up much, since the real goal is selling more high-value NFK-WAS/PHL/NYC itins--which is what pays for the Blacksburg-Roanoke-Lynchburg bus trips today, not the bus charge). In so doing, you retain the flexibility of having a bus run NFK-Richmond directly (no one will complain!) and based on bookings, hire a second bus to cover NPN-WBG-Richmond. Or hire 3...one nonstop bus from each. It never fails to amaze/delight bus passengers to be told that you've eliminated their intermediate stops...a place where buses beat both trains and planes

Station Aficionado wrote: Query: how is timekeeping on the NB Carolinian these days? My impression is that it's not too bad.

Well, in the April Peformance Report, the Carolinian was on-time 72% of the time, compared to 80% for Richmond-NPN and 92% for Lynchburg. Basically, the longer you're running on CSX, the more minutes of delay you get :-/ ...but perhaps another good reason to run a bus up the Peninsula

So I sent a little note to the VA DRPT which read in pertinent part:

Below is a Thruway Bus schedule for a single mid-day bus that would cut in half most scheduled gaps in [Hampton Roads] service by connecting to the Carolinians at Richmond Staples Mill Road. Overall, it makes very "civilized" timings from Hampton Roads to and from Richmond, Washington, Philadelphia, and New York.

The morning northbound nearly halves the 7-hour gap in services--being 3 hours later than the last morning train and 4 hours earlier than next afternoon train--and so substantially improves convenience:

Station / Time
VAB 10:10a
NFK 10:50a
NPN 11:40a
WBG 12:25p
RVM 1:40p
[Delivers Passengers to Northbound Carolinian (departs at 2:12p, gets to WAS before 5pm and NYP before 9pm)]
[Receives Passengers from Southbound Carolinian (arrived at 1:02p, coming from NYP at 7am and WAS at 11am)]]
RVM 1:50p
WBG 3:10p
NPN 3:55p
NFK 5:10p
VAB 5:50p

The southbound return also nearly halves a 7-hour gap in the daily pattern of service, by being 4 hours later than the noontime service and 3 hours earlier than today's earliest evening return.

The bus rotation, scheduled for 7 hours and 40 minutes, is designed to operate on a single shift, with a single driver and a single bus. It would also easily accommodate extra sections on peak holidays that would operate express from their Hampton Roads stations to/from Richmond (no local tickets would be sold between NFK and WBG)

Forgive me Arlington, but I don't get it. That corridor has bus travel. Why would someone take a bus to a train at RVR? At that point, they might as well stay on the bus until WAS, no?