General US High Speed Rail Discussion

jb9152 wrote:

george matthews wrote: Isn't there something called the US army corps of engineers that build canals and dams? High Speed trains are much more important than those.

Unless, of course, you want to POWER those trains with something other than coal.

Those total eclipses of the sun really mess with solar.

george matthews wrote:

jb9152 wrote:

george matthews wrote:If they put the HSR building into the military budget no-one would notice it.

And we all know how essential to national defense are high speed trains...

Isn't there something called the US army corps of engineers that build canals and dams? High Speed trains are much more important than those.

Don't mean to be nitpicky here, but funding for the Corps of Engineers projects is covered under separate line items than the DoD: it doesn't fall into the Pentagon budget. Think the only thing actually covered by Defense are the salaries and pensions for the officers and enlisted men assigned to the Corps-- and my understanding is civilian employees far outnumber military personnel within the organization.

george matthews wrote:

jb9152 wrote:

george matthews wrote:If they put the HSR building into the military budget no-one would notice it.

And we all know how essential to national defense are high speed trains...

Isn't there something called the US army corps of engineers that build canals and dams? High Speed trains are much more important than those.

More important? Not at all.

Flood control is a major issue along many inland waterways, as well as in coast areas. In contrast, high speed rail is only entirely relevant in the North East Corridor.

george matthews wrote:

David Benton wrote:I dont think they said no thank you on account of doubting the federal contribution , it was no thank you based on doubting their own abiltiy to meet ongoing maintenane and running costs .
to rescind funds already allocated to states ( and the state has agreed to take it ) , that should be munity material .
Really , is there no uproar at all over this atroscious behaviour . maybe Lou Reed's friend Donald was right .

Who that?

If they put the HSR building into the military budget no-one would notice it.

It's very hard to see a correlation between national defense and HSR. At the time of the Penn Central bankruptcy, it was argued that the collapse of the freight railroad industry in the Northeast would impact the defense industry. Today, the freight railroad sector is profitable nationwide. That leaves passenger railroading, and quite frankly, passenger rail isn't relevant to the defense sector. Passenger trains aren't used for mass troop movements. Moreover, even the lowliest Private can afford a brand new automobile.

Canals and dams are useful, though sometimes built because of their pork-barrel value.

However, high-speed rail has not yet gotten much pork-barrel value here in the US, though some HSR lines elsewhere seem rather porky.

As to HSR and national security, that's a big stretch, it must be said. Its main value there would be in creating alternatives to short-distance airline travel, alternatives powered by alternatives to oil.

This editorial touches a lot of bases, the mindlessness of Florida Gov. Skeletor, Christie's hypocrisy, Acela, Batman. Well, okay, not Batman.

How Not to Plan for the Future

The agreement between Congress and the White House to virtually eliminate money for high-speed rail is harebrained. France, China, Brazil, even Russia, understand that high-speed rail is central to future development. Not Washington.

The budget package eliminated about $1 billion that President Obama had wanted to add to the current budget, and it rescinded $400 million of $2.4 billion that was already designated for high-speed rail this year.

That money was supposed to go to Florida, but it’s now up for grabs after Gov. Rick Scott mindlessly rejected a plan to build the first high-speed rail corridor between Orlando and Tampa. Despite the vast support of business, Governor Scott claimed it would be too costly for the state government. It turns out that a lot of other governors — including 11 of Mr. Scott’s Republican colleagues — would love that money.

Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood has to choose among 90 proposals from 24 states, the District of Columbia and Amtrak — $10 billion worth in all. The real scandal is that Washington won’t pay most of them.

Two areas stand out on that list: the Northeast corridor from Boston to Washington; and California, which has ambitions to build a high-speed rail system from San Francisco and Sacramento to San Diego. California voters have approved almost $10 billion in bonds for the project (which has an ultimate price tag of some $45 billion), but the state wants the $2 billion for an extension.

That is a promising project, for later. The overall price is not practical now, and the Northeast already has the fastest train in the country, the Acela, which is running on tracks that do not allow it to reach its full speed.

Amtrak, backed by regional governors, is asking for $1.3 billion that would help speed up Acela trains. Some would go to signal, electrical and track improvements to boost the Acela’s speed from 135 miles per hour to 160 m.p.h. in a long stretch between Philadelphia and New York City. New York has another request to clear a path for Acela through an overloaded exchange near New York City’s Pennsylvania Station. Right now more than 750 Long Island Rail Road, Amtrak and New Jersey Transit trains pass through there daily.

Other requests in the Northeast proposal include money for Amtrak to start work on two tunnels under the Hudson River. Those tunnels, vital to rail and road travel through the region, would replace a project that New Jersey’s governor, Chris Christie, canceled last year, costing his state $3 billion in federal funds.

After making that terrible mistake, Mr. Christie now says he wants $570 million in funds to replace another choke point for the Acela — the 100-year-old Portal Bridge across the Hackensack River. He is even willing to put up $150 million of state money, since the bridge is also used by New Jersey commuter trains. In his letter asking for federal funds, he lamented that the bridge, which swings open for river traffic, is “beyond its useful life” and delays trains. That’s rich coming from the man who canceled a project that was vital to ending train delays in the future.

There are many requests, even one from Gov. Scott Walker of Wisconsin, a Republican who earlier rejected $810 million of these funds. Now he wants $150 million for a modest rail project between Milwaukee and Chicago.

President Obama originally proposed spending more than $50 billion over the next six years to make America’s passenger rails compete with other industrialized nations. He wants 80 percent of the nation to have access to high-speed rail in 25 years. That’s not likely to happen with this Congress. Perhaps Governors Christie and Walker, and other Republicans who have a sudden fervor for high-speed rail, can help make his case.

source

goodnightjohnwayne wrote:That leaves passenger railroading, and quite frankly, passenger rail isn't relevant to the defense sector. Passenger trains aren't used for mass troop movements.

Go tell that to the Marines! (hehehehe )

Fredricksburg.com (VA) wrote:Hearkening back to an earlier era of military transport, officials at Fort Lee in Virginia are considering moving Army soldiers back and forth to field training at Fort A.P. Hill in Caroline by train.
…
Concern over the potential for crashes on Interstate 95 led the Army to consider moving soldiers by train.
"The biggest reason is safety," Gregory said.

http://fredericksburg.com/News/FLS/2010 ... 010/556346

http://www.railroad.net/forums/viewtopi ... ee#p844714

Decisions to be announced within the next month.

As WBBM Newsradio 780′s Bob Roberts reports, Federal Railroad Administrator Joe Szabo said the funding decisions should be made in less than a month.

http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2011/05/02/ ... il-grants/

lpetrich wrote:Canals and dams are useful, though sometimes built because of their pork-barrel value.

However, high-speed rail has not yet gotten much pork-barrel value here in the US, though some HSR lines elsewhere seem rather porky.

As to HSR and national security, that's a big stretch, it must be said. Its main value there would be in creating alternatives to short-distance airline travel, alternatives powered by alternatives to oil.

If you are fortunate to live in an area where the TVA provides some power from the dams, you do get a fuel adjustment for the coal/oil not burned. All the rain does save some money. Too bad there is too much rain for the Ohio & Mississippi to handle.

Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood will visit Detroit and New York on Monday to make major high-speed rail funding announcements.

http://www.detnews.com/article/20110506 ... 1409/metro
Secretary LaHood will be accompanied by Governor Rick Snyder and Detroit Mayor Dave Bing.

What's the justification for building a new line from Chicago to Detroit versus improving the Detroit-Toldeo-Chicago route? The Toledo route would also benefit east coast trains, versus a new line which will only benefit Detroit.

Today's announcement:

http://www.fra.dot.gov/roa/press_releas ... 7-11.shtml


Rail project highlights include:

NORTHEAST CORRIDOR (NEC)

Amtrak – NEC Power, Signal, Track, Catenary Improvements – $450 million to boost capacity, reliability, and speed in one of the most heavily-traveled sections of the Northeast Corridor, creating a 24-mile segment of track capable of supporting train speeds up to 160-mph.

Maryland – NEC Bridge Replacement – $22 million for engineering and environmental work to replace the century-old Susquehanna River Bridge, which currently causes frequent delays for commuters due to the high volume of critical maintenance.

New York – NEC Harold Interlocking Amtrak Bypass Routes – $295 million to alleviate major delays for trains coming in and out of Manhattan with new routes that allow Amtrak trains to bypass the busiest passenger rail junction in the nation.

Rhode Island – NEC Kingston Track, Platform Improvements – $25 million for design and construction of an additional 1.5 miles of third track in Kingston, RI, so high-speed trains operating at speeds up to 150-mph can pass trains on a high-volume section of the Northeast Corridor.


Rhode Island – NEC Providence Station Improvements – $3 million for preliminary engineering and environmental work to renovate the Providence Station. These upgrades will enhance the passenger experience, keep the station in good working order and improve transit and pedestrian connectivity.

NORTHEASTERN REGION

Connecticut – New Haven to Springfield Track Construction – $30 million to complete double-track segments on the corridor, bringing added intercity rail service to a route that plays an important role in the region, connecting communities in Connecticut and Massachusetts to the NEC, as well as Vermont.

Massachusetts/Maine – Downeaster Track Improvements – $20.8 million to construct a 10.4-mile section of double track between Wilmington and Andover, MA. Track upgrades will increase schedule performance and dependability for passengers traveling on the Northern New England Downeaster corridor.

New York – Empire Corridor Capacity Improvements – $58 million to construct upgrades to tracks, stations and signals, improving rail operations along the Empire Corridor. This includes replacement of the Schenectady Station and construction of a fourth station track at the Albany - Rensselaer Station, one of the corridor’s most significant bottlenecks.

New York – Rochester Station and Track Improvements – $1.4 million for a preliminary engineering and environmental analysis for a new Rochester Intermodal Station on the Empire Corridor, connecting passengers with additional transit and pedestrian options.



Pennsylvania – Keystone Corridor Interlocking Improvements – $40 million to rebuild an interlocking near Harrisburg on the Keystone Corridor, saving travelers time and improving passenger train schedule reliability.

REGIONAL EQUIPMENT POOLS

Next Generation Passenger Rail Equipment Purchase – This state-of-the-art rail equipment will provide safe and reliable American-built vehicles for passenger travel, while boosting the U.S. manufacturing industry.

Midwest Corridors – $268.2 million to purchase 48 high-performance passenger rail cars and 7 quick-acceleration locomotives for 8 corridors in the Midwestern States: Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Michigan, and Missouri.
California Corridors – $68 million to acquire 15 high-performance passenger rail cars and 4 quick-acceleration locomotives for the Pacific Surfliner, San Joaquin, and Capitol Corridors in California.
MIDWESTERN REGION

Illinois – Chicago - St. Louis Corridor – $186.3 million to construct upgrades on the Chicago - St. Louis Corridor between Dwight and Joliet, IL with trains operating at 110 mph for more than 220 miles of track. This investment will reduce trip times, enhance safety and add more seats on the corridor, increasing the number of people who can conveniently travel by train.

Michigan – Kalamazoo-Dearborn Service Development – $196.5 million to rehabilitate track and signal systems, bringing trains up to speeds of 110 mph on a 235-mile section of the Chicago to Detroit corridor, reducing trip times by 30 minutes.

Michigan – Ann Arbor Station Project – $2.8 million for an engineering and environmental analysis to construct a new high-speed rail station in Ann Arbor, MI, that will better serve passengers and allow more than one train to serve the station simultaneously.

Minnesota – Northern Lights Express – $5 million to complete engineering and environmental work for establishing the Northern Lights Express – a high-speed intercity passenger service – connecting Minneapolis to Duluth, with 110-mph high-speed rail service.


Missouri – Merchant’s Bridge Replacement – $13.5 million to advance the design of a new bridge over the Mississippi River on the Chicago to St. Louis Corridor, replacing a bridge built in the 1890s.

SOUTHERN REGION

North Carolina – Charlotte to Richmond Service Enhancement – $4 million for environmental analysis on the Richmond to Raleigh section of the Southeast High Speed Rail Corridor (SEHSR). This advances the goal of extending high-speed rail service on the NEC into the southeast, with 110-mph capable service.

Texas – Dallas/Fort Worth to Houston Core Express Service – $15 million for engineering and environmental work to develop a high-speed rail corridor linking two of the largest metro areas in the U.S., Dallas/Fort Worth to Houston.

CALIFORNIA AND NORTHWEST REGION

California – Central Valley Construction Project Extension – $300 million for a 20-mile extension along the Central Valley Corridor. This will continue to advance one of the highest priority projects in the nation that will ultimately provide 220 mph high-speed rail service from Los Angeles to San Francisco. The work funded in this round will extend the track and civil work from Fresno to the “Wye” junction, which will provide a connection to San Jose to the West and Merced to the North.

Oregon – Eugene Station Stub Tracks – $1.5 million for analysis of overnight parking tracks for passenger trains on the southern end of the Pacific Northwest Corridor, adding new capacity for increased passenger and freight rail service.

Washington – Port of Vancouver Grade Separation – $15 million to eliminate a congested intersection and bottleneck between freight and passenger tracks. By elevating one set of tracks over the other, travel along the Pacific Northwest Rail Corridor will experience reduced delays and passenger trains will not have to wait for crossing freight traffic.

j653 wrote:What's the justification for building a new line from Chicago to Detroit versus improving the Detroit-Toldeo-Chicago route? The Toledo route would also benefit east coast trains, versus a new line which will only benefit Detroit.

This is not a new line. This is for the improvement of the current Wolverine route with the purchase of 135 miles of NS track and upgrading it to 110 mph speeds. The route which goes through Kalamazoo, Battle Creek, Ann Arbor, Dearborn on the way to Detroit. People do live and travel to/from those places I'm pretty sure. The LD trains from the east coast will see some improvements with the Englewood flyover and Indiana Gateway project in northern Indiana.

Unfortunately for those in Ohio, any corridor services to Ohio are dead so long as Kasich is Governor. He has made his position on passenger trains and transit pretty clear.

U.S. Transportation Secretary LaHood Announces $2 Billion for High-Speed Intercity Rail Projects to Grow Jobs, Boost U.S. Manufacturing and Transform Travel in America

Yonah Freemark has a nice map of the proposals that received grants at A Last Gasp for the Initial Intercity Rail Grants « The Transport Politic, and he lists those proposals by grant amount.

The projects he lists as fully funded are:

• New Haven - Springfield
• Part of NYC - Philadelphia
• Detroit - Kalamazoo
• Chicago - St. Louis
• Chicago - Quad Cities
• Fresno - Bakersfield

The canceled ones are not only the ones in Florida, Ohio, and Wisconsin, but also in Iowa: Quad Cities - Iowa City.

The award announcements today have good balance. Investments in rail need to be in three areas: improvements to the right-of-way (track, structures, signals, etc.), stations, and rolling stock. Previous awards included money for right-of-way improvements and stations, but very little for rolling stock. While shiny new trains aren't much good without improved tracks to run on, it is necessary to buy some new trains to handle the growth that can be expected from reduced travel time. With no assurance of future funding, the money for those new trains needed to be set aside now. It was.

Most of the money awarded today went into six projects. The top three were all true high-speed rail projects: two on the Northeast Corridor and one in California. The next three were emerging high-speed rail projects: one in Illinois, one in Michigan, and rolling stock to be used in Illinois and Michigan.

Several of the smaller projects build on the success of the NEC spine. Connecticut got money to double-track from Hartford to Springfield for trains that connect to the NEC at New Haven. New York got money for work along the Hudson up to Rensselaer, improvements to the Albany-Rensselaer station and a new station at Schenectady. Pennsylvania got money to rebuild an interlocking and reduce the travel time between Harrisburg and Philadelphia. While it is important to maintain a state of good repair on the NEC spine, any time a business achieves a market share over 50%, its new investments bring diminishing returns. These smaller projects expand services into areas where Amtrak's market share is less than 50%.