FY 2014 Operating Budget etc etc etc etc...

In the NPT version of the new RRD tariff, the usual language about Monthly Trailpasses being valid until 10:00 of the first weekday of the month is missing. Is this an oversight or a deliberate change?

I assume it's deliberate. It's made moot by NPT. The purpose of that policy was to accommodate customers who do not have a ticket office at their home station.

I have a few questions:

1. What is meant by "ride" as meant in context of a "200 ride limit?"

2. I'm reading here about transfers and transfer fares. Does a transfer count as one "ride" as defined above, or does it just indicate the continuation of one ride? (Example 1: Lansdale to Suburban Station via RR, then transfer to BSL City Hall to AT&T Station. Example 2: MFL to Frankford, then transfer to Rt. 14 to Neshaminy Mall.)

3. How will tokens be treated during the changeover? Do I lose all the value, or will I be allowed to exchange them for a prepaid "SEPTA Media Card?"

4. About "SEPTA Media Cards:"
a. Do the "prepaid" cards have an expiration date?
b. Do I need to purchase a whole new Media card every month for my trailpass, or can I just "renew" the same one over and over? (Will I be charged a $5 surcharge every month for a new pass? If so, is it incorporated into the price of the pass?)

5. For the casual rider, will there still be "tickets?"

R3 Passenger wrote:1. What is meant by "ride" as meant in context of a "200 ride limit?"

2. I'm reading here about transfers and transfer fares. Does a transfer count as one "ride" as defined above, or does it just indicate the continuation of one ride? (Example 1: Lansdale to Suburban Station via RR, then transfer to BSL City Hall to AT&T Station. Example 2: MFL to Frankford, then transfer to Rt. 14 to Neshaminy Mall.)

"Ride" in this context means a vehicle boarding: every time you have to tap a card to get on a transit vehicle or through a turnstile.

3. How will tokens be treated during the changeover? Do I lose all the value, or will I be allowed to exchange them for a prepaid "SEPTA Media Card?"

There's nothing official yet about the transition, but there will be a transition period where both tokens and cards will be accepted (half the turnstiles at each subway station will be done at a time). Based on precedent elsewhere, I expect there will be an exchange period contemporaneous to and for some time after that.

4. About "SEPTA Media Cards:"
a. Do the "prepaid" cards have an expiration date?

We don't know yet.

b. Do I need to purchase a whole new Media card every month for my trailpass, or can I just "renew" the same one over and over?

No, you will be able to reload the card. In fact, you can arrange an automatic reload.

5. For the casual rider, will there still be "tickets?"

No.

I hope I'm missing something here. The way I'm reading this, since tapping in and out at stations outside Center City will be optional, will it be possible to travel from Thorndale to Doylestown without paying a fare -- or to West Trenton, for that matter, since changing at Suburban or Market East will not require the passenger to leave the platform? Or will there be spot-checks en route by inspectors with hand-held scanners? (If so, that sounds like a Proof of Payment system, which I thought they didn't like.) In fact, if I'm reading this correctly it won't even be possible to tap in or out at the outlying stations.

ExCon90 wrote:I hope I'm missing something here.

Sorry, you're not.

In fact, if I'm reading this correctly it won't even be possible to tap in or out at the outlying stations.

There will be no readers in (new) zone 4. There will be readers in zones 1, 2, 3. You will need to tag those before you board, or you will be charged a zone 4 fare if you go through the Center City turnstile.

Matthew Mitchell wrote:

rslitman wrote:Now regarding the "tapping" - Will this be done everywhere on the Regional Rail Division or just in Center City?

Neither. At all stations except the outer zone (current zone 5 and 6 plus half of zone 4).

Now, I'm even more confused.

Please tell me if I understand this properly. The tapping will be done in Center City and the stations that aren't in the above-mentioned zones.

So, if someone rides from Langhorne (one of the Zone 4 stations becoming a 5) to West Trenton, there will be no tapping done? What about someone riding from, say, Philmont to West Trenton? Or Torresdale to Trenton? They will be tapping at their zone 3 station, right? But not at their eventual destination?

rslitman wrote:

Matthew Mitchell wrote:

rslitman wrote:Now regarding the "tapping" - Will this be done everywhere on the Regional Rail Division or just in Center City?

Neither. At all stations except the outer zone (current zone 5 and 6 plus half of zone 4).

Now, I'm even more confused.

You're not alone.

Please tell me if I understand this properly. The tapping will be done in Center City and the stations that aren't in the above-mentioned zones.

Correct.

So, if someone rides from Langhorne (one of the Zone 4 stations becoming a 5) to West Trenton, there will be no tapping done? What about someone riding from, say, Philmont to West Trenton? Or Torresdale to Trenton? They will be tapping at their zone 3 station, right? But not at their eventual destination?

As far as I understand it, and this did not come up in the press event Thursday, so I'm going by what was in the plan several months ago. You will have to hand over your fare instrument (credit card, SEPTA card, smartphone, etc.) to the conductor if you travel between Yardley and West Trenton or Levittown and Trenton. The conductor will tag it on a hand-held reader and give it back to you. If you had already tagged in at a Center City station, you will be charged a zone 5 (former 6) fare. If you tagged on at some other station like Jenkintown, you will be charged the fare from that zone to zone 5. If you were smart and didn't tag on at Jenkintown, you will be charged a fare from zone 4 to zone 5.

What they do to a cash rider who boarded with a one-time-use zone 4 (or lower) fare and has no card, I have no idea.

But we'll still be able to pay cash? What about at subway stations? Buses? Is cash still good there? How hard will it be to buy a septa card? I have an older cell phone and standard debit cards that don't have chips in them. It sounds like my limited options are: cash and septa card, if I find someone who can sell them.
Can you buy rides online and print something out for the ride?

This doesn't sound as convenient as what we have in Transit-land.

bikentransit wrote:But we'll still be able to pay cash?

Quote from John McGee: "as long as ATMs keep dispensing it, we have to keep accepting it.

What about at subway stations?

Put cash into a vending machine, get a one-ride card (or a multi-ride card).

Buses? Is cash still good there?

Yes, though you will be paying full base fare for each boarding, with no transfers.

How hard will it be to buy a septa card? I have an older cell phone and standard debit cards that don't have chips in them. It sounds like my limited options are: cash and septa card, if I find someone who can sell them.

The number they're talking about is 5,000 sales outlets. Think of all the gift card racks you see at Wawa and at drugstores. If they can get the card into distribution that widely, they should be very easy to get.

Can you buy rides online and print something out for the ride?

No. This is one of the places where SEPTA is going in a different direction from peer systems. Online systems (and cell phone/handheld device apps) have been very successful in New York and Boston

This doesn't sound as convenient as what we have in Transit-land.

No, and it's not as convenient for everyday riders either.

i have been accused of being a little backward and somewhat of a Luddite in the past, but even taking that in to account, this entire system sounds like a gigantic pain in the rear.the bridges and tunnels are falling down and the tracks are falling apart, and THIS is what they're spending our fares and taxes on?

Matthew Mitchell wrote:

R3 Passenger wrote:

4. About "SEPTA Media Cards:"
a. Do the "prepaid" cards have an expiration date?

We don't know yet.

5. For the casual rider, will there still be "tickets?"

No.

For "a", the card will only last for 5 years...which is an interesting twist because usually these types of cards last indefinitely. For 5, I believe there actually will still be paper single trip tickets for the very occasional rider available from the vending machines for the rapid transit lines and Regional Rail turnstiles.

Tritransit Area wrote:For "a", the card will only last for 5 years...which is an interesting twist because usually these types of cards last indefinitely.

Not that unusual. While the physical media may last indefinitely, businesses put expiration dates on the cards for accounting reasons: so they don't have to carry the liability on their books forever.

For 5, I believe there actually will still be paper single trip tickets for the very occasional rider available from the vending machines for the rapid transit lines and Regional Rail turnstiles.

Correct. As I understand it, those will be sold at the cash fare rate and will not have transfer privileges.

Matthew Mitchell wrote:

rslitman wrote:So, if someone rides from Langhorne (one of the Zone 4 stations becoming a 5) to West Trenton, there will be no tapping done? What about someone riding from, say, Philmont to West Trenton? Or Torresdale to Trenton? They will be tapping at their zone 3 station, right? But not at their eventual destination?

As far as I understand it, and this did not come up in the press event Thursday, so I'm going by what was in the plan several months ago. You will have to hand over your fare instrument (credit card, SEPTA card, smartphone, etc.) to the conductor if you travel between Yardley and West Trenton or Levittown and Trenton. The conductor will tag it on a hand-held reader and give it back to you. If you had already tagged in at a Center City station, you will be charged a zone 5 (former 6) fare. If you tagged on at some other station like Jenkintown, you will be charged the fare from that zone to zone 5. If you were smart and didn't tag on at Jenkintown, you will be charged a fare from zone 4 to zone 5.

What they do to a cash rider who boarded with a one-time-use zone 4 (or lower) fare and has no card, I have no idea.

The hell of it that there's no way to even try to comply. Say you tap on and board at Ardmore. You never tap off. How does the system know whether to charge you $3.50 (Intermediate fare to Paoli), or $8.75 (Via Center City fare to Lansdale)? It can't.. Intermediate ridership is 5% of all RRD traffic, FWIW.

I can't wait until the failures stop being hypotheticals, and start being plastered across the front page of the Daily News

This is all sounds so confusing, and quite unnecessary. If it is as confusing to us that have been following the progression of NPT for a while, and understand the entire rail network as a whole, how is this going to be comprehended by the occasional rider? Or even the regular rider?

And when we say tap out at a non CC station, what does that entail? If they don't have machinery to tap out at, will you have to tap out with the conductor? Sounds like dwell times will be increased greatly if this is the case.

Who in SEPTA management actually thinks that this system makes any sense?