• Freight train speeds

  • Guilford Rail System changed its name to Pan Am Railways in 2006. Discussion relating to the current operations of the Boston & Maine, the Maine Central, and the Springfield Terminal railroads (as well as the Delaware & Hudson while it was under Guilford control until 1988). Official site can be found here: PANAMRAILWAYS.COM.
Guilford Rail System changed its name to Pan Am Railways in 2006. Discussion relating to the current operations of the Boston & Maine, the Maine Central, and the Springfield Terminal railroads (as well as the Delaware & Hudson while it was under Guilford control until 1988). Official site can be found here: PANAMRAILWAYS.COM.

Moderator: MEC407

  by moth
 
I saw three southbound trains on Friday along Messalonski lake in Oakland and Belgrade and they deffinately seemed to be moving fast. The first of the 3 was engines, and it seemed faster than 25 as I could not get up to the tracks before the train came by after it blew its horn at Mallard Lane. I would guess the other 2 were going close to 25.

On saturday I was not around the lake during daylight, but the one northbound at around 8pm seemed to be going slower.

On Sunday I saw no trains, but I did spy one MOW vehicle down the tracks when I went out to transfer station with my trash.

These are private crossings, and definately no new signs or recent maintenence at these crossings.

Edit: Perhaps the first southbound was the business train. I was only watching from inside my kitchen, so I could of been mistaken.
  by gokeefe
 
All I can say is the freight I saw around 5pm on SUN was doing somewhere around 40 with four engines and a 77 car consist. No mistaking it, I was the first car in front of the crossing at Readfield Depot. I'll keep an eye out this week and see if I get a chance to see other trains later this week.
  by gokeefe
 
I saw the northbound freight tonight around 9pm. Somebody here can probably tell if these calculations are wrong but I'm wondering if the speed is simply an optical illusion of the geography of the Readfield Depot crossing.

In one minute exactly 39-40 cars went by.

Assume an average length of 55 feet (I think this may be generous). That means 2145-2200 feet per minute or 128700-132000 feet per hour which equates to exactly 24-25 mph (when divided by 5280 feet per mile), the speed limit on that line section with Temporary Slow Orders. There may have been a 10 mph slow order that has since been lifted restoring that section to 25 mph. That's the best I can make of this for now. I guess those of us up here in Guilford Country just don't know what "Fast" looks like anymore. How embarrassing.
  by Finch
 
DOBO is the fastest freight train I ever see here in Durham, NH. They must be doing 35 or 40 most nights (my best estimate at least). Of course, this is usually only a 12-15 car train. The bigger freights are doing more like 25, maybe 30 if they're booking it. It's hard to tell though...I definitely don't claim to be any better at this than anyone else.
  by MEC407
 
It really isn't easy to estimate the speed of a train, especially up close. Objects as large as trains always appear to be moving much faster than they actually are, particularly when you're within a few feet of them.

Renting or borrowing a radar gun is probably the only way to know for sure.
  by NV290
 
The line from Lowell Junction to CPF-200 is the fastest and longest stretch of track Guilford owns (And in actuallity, Guilford only owns from the Mass state line east).

Aside from some permament speed restrictions in a few places, the line is rated for 40MPH freight. The reason you rareley see freights doing 40 is the lack of Head end boxes (HTD's). The FRA requires that any train operating over 30MPH must have working two way Telemetrey capablity. Guilford has less then 10 of these HTD's right now and they are almost always held for trains going from Fitchburg to Gardner that are 4,000 tons plus. And in many cases, even when a train is lucky enough to have an HTD, often it is too underpowered to reach 40 anyhow except for a few places with long downhill stretches. The Dover to Boston sand train DOBO/BODO uses NHN power which always has an HTD (and is never too heavy)and that is why that train is always seen running 40.

As for why the freight speeds are never raised above 40? A few reasons. As people stated, wear and tear on tracks and loco's and fuel is one, but the main reason is the track class system. The higher the class, the more money and time is required to maintain that class. There are standards that are associated for each class. These standards dictate inspection intervals, amount of ballast, tie grading, rail wear, etc. The vast majority of Guilford is class 2, which limits freights to 25mph. This is a cheap alternative to going to a higher class. Less money on materials and manpower. The line to Portland when it was upgraded in 2001 was supposed to be 132lb rail, but Guilford opted for 115 for cost savings. Not only for the rail cost, but the tie plates associated with it. The norm on virtually all the class 1's is 132lb rail and higher. 136 and 142 is very common on the heavy haul routes. 115 is almost never installed on major corridors and mainlines that see real tonnage. 115 is fine for passenger trains, but once you start running heavy freight on a daily basis with a dozen or more trains, 115 will not work for long. As for the 40mph speed for freight, that is actually plenty fast. Much of the class 1's track in the US is 40mph. Even where i run for CSX, 40 for manifest is the norm. Intermodal trains are allowed 50 and in some places, 60.

There would be almost no advantage at all to raising the speeds on that line to 50 for freight simply because the rest of the railroad is almost all at best 25. Combine that with no places to park multiple long trains (Lawrence offers pretty much ONE track to park a train more then 50 cars and not totally tie up the yard) and all you would do with raising speeds is create even worse bottlenecking of trains. The longer it takes for the larger trains to come down to Haverhill the more time that gives dispatchers to get other trains farther along. You need to keep things even as best as possible. As it is now, it almost always takes a minimum of 2 crews to get a train from Lowell to Deerfield. Many times 3 crews. There are only 2 places in Lowell you can park 60+ car westbound trains. CPF-NC and CPF-BY Meadowcroft St. And you can park one train at each location. The last thing they want is more trains showing up in a hurry. And going east is no better. Rigby yard is at best, half open. There is no night yard clerks and almost the entire westbound yard is out of service. Again, they dont want trains leaving Lowell and Lawrence and knocking on Rigby's door any sooner. As it is, they park trains at Rollinsford and Wells almost daily.

Unless the PAS deal truly brings the west end speeds up to 30 and 40 mph for the majority of it and then PAR fixes the tracks from CPF-312 going east to at least 25 AND they actually get some intermodal buisness out of Maine, i doubt you will ever see the speeds ANYWHERE on PAR ever go faster then 40.
  by MEC407
 
NV290 wrote:The line to Portland when it was upgraded in 2001 was supposed to be 132lb rail, but Guilford opted for 115 for cost savings.
Just one minor clarification:

Guilford wanted 132lb rail, but since the state of Maine was paying for it, the state dictated the specs, and went with 115. Guilford protested and claimed that 115 wouldn't be safe for passenger trains going faster than 60 MPH, so FRA came in and ran a bunch of tests and found that 115 was indeed sufficient for passenger trains up to 79. Guilford then said "ok, we can live with 115, but we'll need extra ballast then." I believe some sort of compromise was struck in regards to that issue. And it still took two or three years before Amtrak was allowed to do 79 in a few select spots (after additional trackwork was done).
  by Noel Weaver
 
gokeefe wrote:Thanks for the responses to the questions.

There is no way on this earth that train was doing 25 mph. I think 40 mph sounds about right.

I trust you are an expert regarding the speed of a passing train.

http://www.railroad.net/forums/viewtopi ... 55&t=55070

My father was visiting recently. He mentioned to me that at a private crossing where he was walking the dog that the signs by the private crossing were brand-new. This is in the vicinity of Readfield Depot. He also mentioned that he has never seen new signage on a private crossing in his entire life. Considering he's over 60 and well-traveled and the type of person who pays attention to small details like that I was very impressed. He wouldn't say such a thing lightly.
Just because somebody has been around a while (he is over 60) does not necessarily make him a good judge of speed
either.

According to the current timetable, top freight train speed on Guilford is 40 MPH and probably with the type of freight that
they handle and the territory they operate over, 40 is fast enough.
For your information, it is a very serious federal offense for an engineer to be going 40 if he or she should be going 25.
Before you just state that a train is exceeding the speed by 15 MPH, I suggest you make sure that you KNOW what you are
talking about. I personally do not think you do.
Noel Weaver
  by cpf354
 
The only place on the Freight Main I've heard a road freight do anywhere near 40MPH is at a location on the MBTA owned portion at Shirley, known as "Slab City". The detector there has from time to time announced freight train speeds of 40 MPH. The "T" owns and maintains the main line between CPF-WL and Fitchburg, and the maximum speed for freight trains there is 40mph.
There is NO WAY freights would be going 40mph on the FML east of Portland. Even if they did the casual observer would be struck by the amount of rocking and vibration over Class 2 (25MPH) track. Pan Am management has stated that the Class 2 bussiness model works for them, so it's highly unlikely they would upgrade to Class 3(40mph) over the portion of track mentioned.
  by NV290
 
cpf354 wrote:The only place on the Freight Main I've heard a road freight do anywhere near 40MPH is at a location on the MBTA owned portion at Shirley, known as "Slab City". The detector there has from time to time announced freight train speeds of 40 MPH. The "T" owns and maintains the main line between CPF-WL and Fitchburg, and the maximum speed for freight trains there is 40mph.
The detectors on the line heading up to main do not transmit speeds, but as i mentioned above, with HTD's and enough power, OR, in long downhill stretches they do run freight at 40mph. And DOBO/BODO runs 40 nightly.

cpf354 wrote:There is NO WAY freights would be going 40mph on the FML east of Portland. Even if they did the casual observer would be struck by the amount of rocking and vibration over Class 2 (25MPH) track. Pan Am management has stated that the Class 2 bussiness model works for them, so it's highly unlikely they would upgrade to Class 3(40mph) over the portion of track mentioned.
That is 100% true. The track east of Portland is 25 at best. And has been that way for years. Much of it is still 10. While some engineers may run a bit hot while adjusting speed through downgrades, "hot" to most is a few miles over, maybe 5 at most while making adjustments. You would have a better chance of being struck by lighting then seeing a PAR train running anywhere near 40 east of CPF200.
  by gokeefe
 
Before you just state that a train is exceeding the speed by 15 MPH, I suggest you make sure that you KNOW what you are
talking about. I personally do not think you do.
Mr. Weaver:

Please refer to my last post...
I saw the northbound freight tonight around 9pm. Somebody here can probably tell if these calculations are wrong but I'm wondering if the speed is simply an optical illusion of the geography of the Readfield Depot crossing.

In one minute exactly 39-40 cars went by.

Assume an average length of 55 feet (I think this may be generous). That means 2145-2200 feet per minute or 128700-132000 feet per hour which equates to exactly 24-25 mph (when divided by 5280 feet per mile), the speed limit on that line section with Temporary Slow Orders. There may have been a 10 mph slow order that has since been lifted restoring that section to 25 mph. That's the best I can make of this for now. I guess those of us up here in Guilford Country just don't know what "Fast" looks like anymore. How embarrassing.
I would never wish to imply that engineers are operating illegally. There was some consideration of the idea that Temporary Stop Orders had been lifted or some type of heavy maintenance had been done allowing faster speed. If the calculations are correct there is no way that train was doing a single mile over the limit (assuming it's still 25mph).

The Readfield Depot crossing is a blind crossing, in that you can't see the train approaching from either direction until it's almost on top of you, if you are in a vehicle parked behind the stop line when the grade crossing signals have been activated. I believe to a certain extent this creates an optical illusion that magnifies the speed of trains travelling by because you don't see them until they are less then 20 feet away from the grade crossing when approaching from the south and maybe 60 feet when approaching from the north.
  by newpylong
 
gokeefe wrote:I don't know what anybody is going to make of this but here's the news...

In the past two weeks I have noticed GRS trains going past Winthrop and Readfield that seemed to be travelling unusually fast. This evening I watched the train go through Readfield Depot and almost couldn't keep count of the consist it was going so fast (4 engines 77 cars mixed freight). I mentioned this to some members of the family and they said they too had noticed trains travelling VERY fast recently, in fact they claimed they were faster than they ever remembered them going.

I'm going to throw out a wild estimate of 40-60mph. Definitely not a mile under 40. I have seen FAST trains, and had NEC Regionals blow past at 110 mph on the platform at BWI, so I know speed when I see it. The train going through this evening was absolutely S-C-R-E-A-M-I-N-G by freight standards. The smoke coming out of the stack was horizontal and the lead engine was bobbing vertically a little bit as it came through the crossing at the Depot.

I had noticed some MOW assets on the tracks in the mornings in the past few weeks and that makes me wonder if they cleared some slow orders somewhere in order for this to happen. I have no idea what's going on but the trains are really rolling through here these days.

Does anyone know what the listed speed limit for the GRS Main from Lewiston to Waterville is and whether or not there are any slow orders in effect right now?
Way up there, not much over 25 MPH. Which can seem very fast if you're used to 10... Another good spot to get rocking up to 40 was on the D&H. Once your tail end cleared XO heading west you could notch it up to 40 all the way to CPF480, a good 13 miles or so. Not sure what the track speed is over there nowadays, but the D&H was going downhill on maintenance it seemed when I left.
  by gokeefe
 
I have to agree that 25 mph seems really fast compared to 10 mph. Too bad they still have slow orders in effect preventing 40 mph but at least that don't crawl along like they used to. The new speed leaves the impression that the company is healthy and their plant in not falling apart the way it had been.
  by newpylong
 
Unfortunately, its the same thing every fall. They do a decent amount of track work, the track bed stabilized, and speeds are up. In the spring in goes downhill and the whole RR is 10 until fall again.
  by railroadManager
 
Ahh, the number one rule of railroading is drainage. A harsh mud season will ruin any tamping. Mud spots are prevalent on the "back road." Removing them is expensive and time consuming. Plasser-American makes some impressive machinery, but I doubt it's worth the investment for a road like Pan Am. New ties become garbage quickly if they are in the mud.