• First Day for the Route 15

  • Discussion relating to Southeastern Pennsylvania Transportation Authority (Philadelphia Metro Area). Official web site can be found here: www.septa.com. Also including discussion related to the PATCO Speedline rapid transit operated by Delaware River Port Authority. Official web site can be found here: http://www.ridepatco.org/.
Discussion relating to Southeastern Pennsylvania Transportation Authority (Philadelphia Metro Area). Official web site can be found here: www.septa.com. Also including discussion related to the PATCO Speedline rapid transit operated by Delaware River Port Authority. Official web site can be found here: http://www.ridepatco.org/.

Moderator: AlexC

  by the sarge
 
I was able to catch the run of the first revenue PCC-II early Sunday Morning – actually, since I live in Port Richmond, I decided to ride the first westbound Run. Since the first car was scheduled to leave 59th street at 12:30 AM for the first trip eastbound, I decide to head out around 1:00AM, but before going to the Westmoreland Loop, I opted to drive around and meet the first run before riding. Well, SEPTA was very cautious for the first run. Leading the PCC II #2323 was a SEPTA escort vehicle with its strobe lights blinking. The pace was very slow, making the first eastbound run very late. After meeting the trolley at 5th and Girard, I headed back home to park the car and meet the trolley at the end of the line. I arrived at the Westmoreland loop just as the trolley crossed Allegany Ave. When pulling into the loop and making the final turn into the terminus, the trolley lost its pole. With little fanfare and railfans taking pictures, I boarded for the westbound journey. The SEPTA officials decided for the westbound trip, the trolley would not follow the escort vehicle and try to keep to schedule. Off we went.

The ride began nicely until the operator went too fast underneath the famous bridge between Lehigh and Somerset, we lost the pole again. After the little delay we were off and running. Because the time was approaching 200AM, we only stopped for the traffic lights until we reached Front Street. A few of the passengers boarding were a bit stunned, but happy to see the trolley.

Between Front and Broad, the ride was smooth with little stopping. Between Broad and the Zoo we picked up a significant amount of passengers. Some appeared a bit disappointed when they found out that the trolley would be a permanent sight along the line, but most were happy and appreciated the historic significance of the refurbished vintage equipment. I heard one young gentlemen note “Damn, dis’s nice, kinda back to old school”. A few were happy to find out they were on the inaugural revenue run – they found out because they inquired about why there were some SEPTA officials and some “not so regular looking riders for this time” (Rail enthusiasts) on board.

From ZOO to Lancaster Ave, the ride went as usual with some passengers boarding and disembarking. Along the way, the attention we were drawing from many citizens of the neighborhoods we were traveling through, was very obvious. At Lancaster Ave, we had a couple of slight delays. First, the automatic switches for merging / diverging on the Route 10 line were not automatic – the operator had to throw the switch manually. The delay did draw some ribbing from some of the younger passengers and horn blowing motorists. To compound the problem, when we finally went on our way, we lost our pole again. The ribbing from the passengers continued.

To 63rd and Girard, the journey went smoothly; we lost the SEPTA officials and some railfans at 59th street. At the end of the line, we were told by the operator that the trolley is going to cut the trip short and turnaround at 26th street to get back on schedule. Because, I needed to go all the way to Port Richmond and did not feel like getting off in the middle of West Philadelphia at 300 AM, I told the operator that I will ride along back to 63rd and stay on for a second trip; he did not mind at all.

I rode along the short eastbound trip and even waited on board for 10 minutes at 26th street before heading westbound. The trip went along as usual until we went through Lancaster Ave again and lost the pole. Lucky for me, another PCC II met us going eastbound, so I hopped off.

The eastbound trip on the second PCC II was nice with most stops only for traffic lights. I rode the rest of the way to Port Richmond and the pole flung off again at the terminus with the operator cursing up a storm ending in “I already hate these $%^# things already!!”

On Sunday afternoon, I decide to check out the trolley operations by automobile during the height of a slightly busy afternoon. I was disappointed to see a route 15 bus by Girard and Front. (Also, during the early mornings there were two buses operating with two trolleys). The disappointment disappeared as I was driving and started to run in more trolleys. I counted roughly six trolleys with three buses handling the schedule.

Some more observations.

The wheelchair lifts are horrible! This afternoon while driving, I witnessed a wheelchair operation about 10 blocks west of the Zoo stop. After I casually dorve all the way to 63rd st and then to 59th to check out the Callowhill depot, I headed back on Grirard driving slowly eastbound, I caught up to the wheelchair occupied trolley on the Girard Ave bridge –followed by THREE PCC II’s and a 15 BUS!!!. (I know one westbound trolley did turn around at 40th street, I guess they made the decision prior to the wheelchair delay) Then the wheelchair passenger had to get off at Broad St. Talk about delays, there is nowhere to go around accept to pass the trolley in the oncoming traffic lane –which the 15 bus did with some scary action. Something needs to be done for the wheelchairs; I believe it would be easier to lift the passenger by hand off the chair and onto the trolley, then load the wheelchair on, and then repeat for offloading. I am only joking and understand the ramifications of doing this, but honestly, the current method is going to kill this line.

I also heard complaints from passengers about the canceled stops and the inability for the trolley to lower itself. I know this is going to pose problems for senior citizens, but the people I heard the complaints from were just plain overweight.

As to the trolley poles that keep flying off; I know from experience that this can either be caused by the overhead not being lined up properly, new frogs, or inexperienced operators going too fast – there is a procedure when traveling over frogs that operators have to master; coast through slow, then apply power once you hear the last axle hit the switch.. Sometimes the tolerances are so tight on switches; the specifications are designed for frogs that have been worn down a bit from normal operations. I’ve seen the problem of flung poles arise in established lines in the past when new switches were installed; hopefully this is what is happening, plus, many of the operators of the Route 15 are green, so once they get the feel for operating and the frogs wear down, the problem should fix itself.

More to come on the progress of this line as I have to ride daily.

  by Jersey_Mike
 
The wheelchair lifts are horrible! This afternoon while driving, I witnessed a wheelchair operation about 10 blocks west of the Zoo stop. After I casually dorve all the way to 63rd st and then to 59th to check out the Callowhill depot, I headed back on Grirard driving slowly eastbound, I caught up to the wheelchair occupied trolley on the Girard Ave bridge –followed by THREE PCC II’s and a 15 BUS!!!. (I know one westbound trolley did turn around at 40th street, I guess they made the decision prior to the wheelchair delay) Then the wheelchair passenger had to get off at Broad St. Talk about delays, there is nowhere to go around accept to pass the trolley in the oncoming traffic lane –which the 15 bus did with some scary action. Something needs to be done for the wheelchairs; I believe it would be easier to lift the passenger by hand off the chair and onto the trolley, then load the wheelchair on, and then repeat for offloading. I am only joking and understand the ramifications of doing this, but honestly, the current method is going to kill this line.

Yeah, I was on that trolley this afternoon and the whole embarkation took about 20 minutes and would have taken longer if not for a Railfan/Morotman stepping up to help operate the crazy device. I guess you might say the disruption was my fault when I forgot to knock on wood about how we were lucky not to have a disabled passenger (the disabled patron showed up litterally a minute later). Most of the problem was that it was the first time the operator had had to use the lift in an operational circumstance and the passenger was having some trouble maneuvering onto the platform. I am sure with practice the operation can take under 5 minutes, but hopefully the disabled will simply learn to avoid using the line.

  by jfrey40535
 
As happy as I was to see the trolleys return I was very dissapointed in how SEPTA started the service. Firstly, the service is operated as a mix of buses and trolleys because they have a shortage of operators qualified to operate the trolleys. Secondly, word apparantly has not gotten out not to block the trolley tracks, especially at turns like at 29th Street. When I rode, we had to wait several times where cars were parked too close to the tracks. It took a few phone calls to control, 911 and alot of horn honking to get the cars to move.

SEPTA only gave the qualified operators 1 day of refresher training to operate on the line, so I was not surprised when we lost the wire at Somerset Street because the operator went under the bridge too fast. Service was very sporatic on the first day too. All of the regular riders were very upset.

I too noticed regulars being upset about losing their stops on Girard. While a extra one block walk may not mean much to most of us, if you're a senior citizen with bad knees it does mean alot. I met 2 senior women today who also were very anti-trolley. THey don't like the idea of having to walk into the street to meet the trolley on the island. I can see their point.

As a commuter, I'm very concerned about the reliability of the line as well. I'm sure within a week or 2 the bugs will be worked out. But all it takes is a 10 minute delay to ruin someone's day.

Most of the regulars liked the trolley but changed their mind as soon as they were late. Again I can see their point but hopefully these bugs get worked out soon.

The wheelchair lift is also going to be a big problem too. I witnessed a operator take 14 minutes to load one chair today.

Finally, I think the biggest problem is the size of the PCC fleet. The western half of the line needs more service. Period. Even on regular bus days you can expect standing loads on a weekend day. Today was no exception. Unfortunately if we are fortunate enough to get more service, it will be in the form of buses.

I think it would be an excellent idea of replicating PCC features on new trolleys, its already being done with older designs in other cities. In 2011 SEPTA will be replacing the Kawasaki cars, now would be a good time to start a campaign on getting "PCC-III's".

  by Jersey_Mike
 
Here's a question. Diesel prices what they are and the general unpredictability of life, does anyone think we might see some K-Cars on the Rt 15 on nights or weeknds to sub for the buses? It would seem to me to be in SEPTA's best interest to use the juice as much as possible and if there are spare K-cars sitting in the depot on weekends, why not use them and give the buses a rest.

Also, how many PCC's are on property that could theoretically be converted into PCC II's?

  by Otto Vondrak
 
Got to Westmoreland Loop around 10am with my two cohorts. Shocked to find a 15 bus in the loop! Relaxed a bit when a PCC came into view. Buffs were everywhere. I got to see a part of Philly I have never visited before (did all the Subway-Surface lines on a charter two years ago).

We got shots at Westmorelan, up Richmond St... over to Girard- a few shots at the Girard Station on the Market Frankford El... a few shots at Girard College... over to 63rd street where we watched a wheelchair lift malfunction delay a car's departure... backtrack to the infamous 59th Street and a quick visit to Callowhill Depot to watch a car being put away... a few shots just east of the Zoo before we headed over to Elmwood Depot for cheesesteaks at Falone's (and a Rita's water ice). SPECIAL NOTE: Upon exiting Falone's, a PCC signed up for 15- Girard via 63rd Street departed the depot and headed down the tracks! That was an unexpected end to the day.

My complete notes are in the car rigth now and I'm too lazy to go downstairs and get them. We observed four to five cars in service with busses thrown in whenever. We heard there weren't enough operators to cover service, however, there were plenty of supervisors, wire crews, and even reps from Brookville on hand to address any issues that came up.

It was a great day- looking forward to getting my slides back!

-otto-

  by the sarge
 
To answer your first question: No, the K-cars cannot be used because they are not ADA compliant. They can still run on the subway-surface lines (I think they are on a waiver for a few more years), but not on the 15. Basically, restoring trolleys to the line is in the same guidelines as instituting a new service; which require the service to follow ADA regulations. Plus, the route run by busses already meets compliance, so you cannot step back either.

I figured the long delay with the wheelchair lift was contributed to operator inexperience, but I heard the whole operation takes at least 7 minutes with no hang-ups. So add 7 minutes for loading then 7 minutes for off loading (If it also takes 7 minutes) and you already created a bottleneck on the line, especially during the operation of the 5 to 10 minute headway schedule.

I also heard from a SEPTA supervisor that the wires being flung off was due to operator inexperience.

On another note, I had to run out to Center City this evening around 7 PM. I decided to ride the 15 to the El. It was a bus and all I saw were buses (2) heading the other way. When I traveled home around 9 PM, the whole line was under bus operation. I waited at Front and Girard for 1 ½ hrs before a bus showed up – 4 went by the other way, and Father Denny’s was CLOSED! So, no beer for me, just hanging out on the corner like an idiot listening to the other regular riders talk about how the trolleys are the worst decision SEPTA made. The bus driver told me, when he finally showed up, everything hit the fan around 7PM and the whole line went “Haywire” and is still under chaos. He heard a rumor that one of the PCC-II’s broke down; I can’t confirm this.

Since SEPTA could not run the line with at least one PCC-II for 24 hrs, I give the opening debut a grade of D-. I will provide a follow up grade in two weeks

Otto, I know a few PCC-II's were still at Elmwood, I wonder if it was just a move to Callowhill or if it was actully heading into service. I noticed that the operators were having trouble with the sign boards and most of the trolleys today had the wrong destinations (many eastbounds had 63rd and Girard).

In the tunnel today under city hall, when a route 13 K-car was flipping his destiniation sign, I noticed one of the routes was the 23. I have ridden the ss lines for years and never noticed that before....
Last edited by the sarge on Sun Sep 04, 2005 9:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

  by jfrey40535
 
What happened to the PTC/SEPTA logo on PCC-II 2337? It has nothing on it, has rust on it and a huge white scratch at the left rear of the vehicle. I guess SEPTA employees have no pride in this new fleet. I should also note that the farebox was broken.

I was out again at 9:30PM and only 1 PCC was orbiting. A bus operator told me it would be out until 2AM. So much for trolleys...Amazing how SEPTA can botch this, but we saw it coming. Hopefully the operator shortage will change. They should have trained the guys on the slate to run these as well, meaning every time someone takes a day off you're going to see a bus out there.
does anyone think we might see some K-Cars on the Rt 15 on nights or weeknds to sub for the buses?
No. K-Cars are not ADA compliant. All route 15 vehicles MUST be ADA compliant which leaves you with PCC-II's and buses. SEPTA doesen't care about diesel prices. They have no incentive to.
how many PCC's are on property that could theoretically be converted into PCC II's?
A few are left at Midvale but they are too far gone for rehab. THe last of the good cars were sold by SEPTA a few weeks ago. We can't have any extras lying around so SEPTA sold them. This is going to be more like the Chestnut Hill trolley than a full-time op the way today started. I also noticed after mid-afternoon that the supervisors split so the vehicles were leaving whenever. AT one point I witnessed 2 PCC's pulling out followed by a bus within 3 minutes of each other. Was kind of funny seeing the buses this afternoon. The buses were empty while the trolleys were packed.

  by PARailWiz
 
What happened to the PTC/SEPTA logo on PCC-II 2337? It has nothing on it, has rust on it and a huge white scratch at the left rear of the vehicle. I guess SEPTA employees have no pride in this new fleet. I should also note that the farebox was broken.
Well, I certainly hope they find some pride. I'd hate to have comments like those in the fifth paragraph of the link below even appear to be justified. You just know there are plenty of people who'll jump on anything, ignoring all the other places in the country and world where trolleys are considered an asset.

http://www.philly.com/mld/philly/news/12554092.htm

  by Jersey_Mike
 
To answer your first question: No, the K-cars cannot be used because they are not ADA compliant. They can still run on the subway-surface lines (I think they are on a waiver for a few more years), but not on the 15. Basically, restoring trolleys to the line is in the same guidelines as instituting a new service; which require the service to follow ADA regulations. Plus, the route run by busses already meets compliance, so you cannot step back either.
An arguement can be made that if every other vehicle is ADA compliant then the route is too. I mean if the lift breaks on a bus I doubt they'd pull it out of service. Why can't the damned bush administration be good for something and grant a waiver for the K-cars over the entirety of the SEPTA trolley network.
He last of the good cars were sold by SEPTA a few weeks ago.
I thought that was a threat to help SEPTA get its supplimentary budget approved. Who got the cars? San Fran?

I hope Randell sends these inept SEPTA directors packing (is the MBTA hiring, anyone?) and gets someone better in place to administer a transit renaissance spurred on my $3 a gallon gas.
Last edited by Jersey_Mike on Sun Sep 04, 2005 11:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

  by Otto Vondrak
 
I'm sure it will take some time to iron out the bugs in this new operation. It's a learning curve for everyone, I guess. Perhaps SEPTA will use this not-so-smooth start as a lever against bringing back any more routes. They can explain how they were "forced" to bring back the service "under pressure" only to prove "wildly unpopular with its riders" leading to the decision to use the trolleys on a "limited basis."

"-otto-"

  by limejuice
 
Jersey_Mike wrote:Why can't the damned bush administration be good for something and grant a waiver for the K-cars over the entirety of the SEPTA trolley network.
Because then you'll complain that he's screwing over the disabled in favor of wealthy BIG TRANSIT "fat cats". The problem here, is that you're looking to the government for a solution, when in fact you can see clearly that the government is the problem.

  by Otto Vondrak
 
Sunday, September 4, 2005
WB = towards 63rd Street EB = towards Westmoreland Loop

Starting at 10:00 am at Westmoreland Loop:

2332 - Westmoreland Loop

2328 - entering Westmoreland Loop from Madison Street

2328 - EB Girard Av/Third Street

2322 - EB Girard Av/Lee at Market-Frankford El

2325 - EB same

2332 - WB Girard Av/Corinthian at Girard College

2335 - WB same

2325 - WB same

2325 - Girard Av/Lancaster Av (somhow my notes are out of order- or some of these cars were diverted to turnback loops to keep schedule. I failed to mark direction in my notes) - this is crossing of the Route 10, PCC's were approaching in both directions.

2335 - same

2333 - same

2325 - Girard Av/63rd St layover

2325 - EB Girard Av/61st St

2330 - Entering Callowhill Depot

2333 - WB Girard Av/Poplar/33rd Street

2332 - Girard Av/2nd Street (no notes to direction)

2335 - EB Girard Av/Berks

2322 - WB Richmond St/Indiana Av

2335 - WB Richmond St/Wishart St

2325 - WB same

2336 - Island Av/Elmwood (departing Elmwood Depot!), 3:30 pm.

I thought it was a pretty good day. Hope to return again!

-otto-

  by jfrey40535
 
As of 11AM this morning the 15 is being run entirely by bus. From what I saw since it started, its clear that SEPTA wanted this to fail before it even started.