Federal, Night Owl, Twilight Shoreliner (Trains 65, 66, 67)

bostontrainguy wrote:Considering a new sleeper-equipped Twilight Shoreliner:

Would it make more sense to serve Raleigh, NC (POP 431,746) instead of Newport News (POP 182,159)? Raleigh is a growing Capital city and rail service is expanding in that area. Newport News seems like a rather small market to serve with sleeper service.

The schedule would work something like this:
BOS 9:30PM / NYP 2:30AM / WAS 7:00AM / Raleigh 12:30PM (connect to a 12:45PM later-scheduled Piedmont?)
Raleigh 5:00PM / WAS 10:30PM / NYP 3:00AM / BOS 8:00AM (connection from existing 3:21PM Piedmont)

This of course all gets even better when the "S" Line gets reactivated. (The future "S" Line provides a more direct route for Richmond–Raleigh trains saving an hour versus their current routing along the A Line through Selma).

Also suggested long ago that a sleeper-equipped Night Owl and an extended Palmetto could be combined so that through sleeper service could run along the entire east coast. The train would run pretty much opposite of the schedule of existing Silver Service. Arriving in Florida in the morning and leaving later in the day would allow connections to the huge cruise ship market (now requiring overnight hotel stays due to the late arrival and early departures of current Amtrak trains) and an extra day in the sun. Maybe even run it down the FEC which would add the busy Port Canaveral cruiseport which is now very inconvenient.

I would like to see more one seat service from Boston to the south of Virginia. You do run into more delays south of Virginia but I'd argue going to Virginia is already too far south.

Current Boston/NEC service (please double check for errors):

Southbound:
65/67: Newport News
95 (M-F): Newport News
195 (Sa-Su): Richmond
171/147/145: Lynchburg
93 (M-Th): Richmond
83/93 (F-Su): Newport News

Northbound:
86/164: Richmomd
174/82 (M-Sa): Richmond
176/156: Lynchburg
88 (Sa-Su): Norfolk
94/96/194 (M-Sa): Newport News

I can see extending the Richmond trains to Raleigh (probably have to do some switching of schedules to allow the train to leave Raleigh after 7am).

In terms of the Night Owl, the Raleigh/Durham area has slightly more population than the Virginia Beach area (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_m ... ted_States" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;) but the shorter distance and less opportunity for delays makes a case for leaving it at Newport News. I myself would vote for North Carolina if it were up to me (and extend the current Richmond trains to Newport News or Norfolk). I'd like to one day see passengers in Boston/Providence/New Haven have a one seat ride to Florida one day. If one day there are more slots available north on Shore Line East, I'd like to see one of the Silvers extended to BOS.

To elaborate on my earlier post about this topic. I did some research and here is what existed on the New Haven Railroad as of April 28, 1957: (number of cars followed by the train number:
New York - Boston 8 - (train) 2
New York - Providence 3 - 4
New York - Montreal 2 - 168
New York - Portland 5 - 124
New York - Concord 1 - 124
New York - Bangor 1 - 124
New York - Concord 1 - 124
New York - White River Junction 1 - 56
New York - St. Albans 1 - 168 via CV 303 from White River Junction

Washington - Boston 7 - 172
Washington - Providence 1 - 172
Washington - Springfield 1 - 172 via 412 from New Haven
Washington - Montreal 2 - 168

Philadelphia - Boston 4 - 186
Pittsburgh - Boston 2 - 186

This comes to a total of 40 sleeping cars on a Monday. On Friday's the count would be higher when you add in the Bretton Woods, Hyannis and Bar Harbor cars to the above. Today I think the only one that could pay and even exist would be Washington - Boston which in 1957 had 7 cars plus 1 for Providence. In some cases even the tracks are gone today while in other cases the traffic either does not exist or goes by automobile or by flying machine. In September of 1960 the Maine Central went from hosting an all Pullman train (The Bar Harbor in the summer months on weekends) to freight only within a day or two. Patrick McGinnis drove the Maine Central out of the passenger business a little bit at a time but it is long gone. This did not have to happen but it did. I can well remember watching these trains pass through Bridgeport in the wee hours while keeping the operator at SS-60 company, OH what days they were. During my firing days I also worked a good number of these great trains. AGAIN A VERY HAPPY NEW YEAR TO ALL!!
Noel Weaver

With regard to the previous post to mine, I well remember riding the sleepers between New York and Raleigh. Left New York around 9:00 PM on PC 141 arrived Raleigh the next morning on SCL 9. SCL 9 and 10 were the Palmland, not fancy by any means but decent in every respect and passes were honored as well. All I had to pay was the Pullman or sleeping car space charge for a decent night's sleep. There was also a HW diner on these trains that served a good meal at a reasonable price. Generally very friendly folks too.
Today I think New York - Raleigh would be a good sleeping car route IF they have enough sleepers to cover the line and IF they can do it without a huge lay over cost in Raleigh. It is sure a good one to consider.
Noel Weaver

On a route very similar to that of the old Night Owl ........VIA tried an overnight train between Montreal and Toronto as recently as 2000 to 2005. Large cities, 335 miles apart and also with frequent daytime service.

But it didn't work. The Enterprise was extensively marketed but with the fast day trains....people just wanted to be home in their own beds at night. Not in a hotel room....let alone a sleeper.

Initially there was a Park Car providing lounge service but the times I rode there might be one or two enjoying a drink in the evening. Later the train received the new Renaissance Cars and you now had a private shower in a lot of the bedrooms.

I received numerous discount coupons to use a sleeper one-way and return by fast afternoon train in VIA-1 First Class but the only times the trains were full were on Fri and Sun evenings and this was in coach. On days the Enterprise connected with the Canadian....you did have a few more in the sleepers, but not many.

I never rode them at night but I also remember the Cavalier on the Montreal - Toronto run. This is no doubt the best shot in Canada but it does not come anywhere near close to the NEC between Boston and Washington. Unfortunately you are dealing with a freight railroad (CN) in Canada while in the NEC Amtrak can pretty much run what the see fit to run. Just like the US politics rears its ugly head too.
Noel Weaver

A friend and I rode the aforementioned Cavalier many years ago. As I recall, the trip was about five hours long, and there were five stops; this worked out to more than one stop per hour. Just about the time one was near drifting off to sleep, the train would stop, the traps would be raised (bang!), extensive crew conversations in French would take place, the traps would be lowered again bang(!), and the train would start up again. This trip did provide me with the opportunity to say that I had ridden in a section. The beds were wide and fairly comfortable, but all one's possessions had to fit into a mini-hammock along the wall. Andrew Jennings, who has his made a career in the railroad industry, was the occupant of the other bunk.
-John

Well, so long as we are addressing all overnight services here, allow me to note I rode the CN "Cavalier" Toronto to Montreal during July 1967. This was CN's last hurrah of their passenger train initiative and when Expo 67 was open.

Train had Sleepers "stretching out of sight".

But that was "last hurrah, for when I next rode that train - my only ride ever on VIA - during July 1980, it was down to two CN "E--" Sleepers (to Montreal and Ottawa) and a couple of Coaches.

bostontrainguy wrote:Considering a new sleeper-equipped Twilight Shoreliner:

Would it make more sense to serve Raleigh, NC (POP 431,746) instead of Newport News (POP 182,159)? Raleigh is a growing Capital city and rail service is expanding in that area. Newport News seems like a rather small market to serve with sleeper service.

Newport News may be smaller than Raleigh, but that's because it's only one of the 7 cities that make up Hampton Roads - which have a total population of more than 1.7 million (Virginia Beach alone has almost exactly as many people as Raleigh - 452,745 vs 451,066 2015 estimates). And not only are there many people who drive from across the region to Newport News, there is also a Thruway bus connection from 65/67 to Norfolk and Va Beach.

I think the impressive farebox recovery ratio of 1.22 for NPN trains is enough justification for them being the priority.

Until CAF finally (?) gets at least ~ 15 sleepers into revenue service we will have no idea what will happen. WHY ? It may be that Amtrak has no idea what they will do even though preliminary planning has been done. Metrics have change drastically since the 25 V-2s have been ordered.

I don't think it's so cut and dried. There are two possible initial outcomes. First, the widely held conventional wisdom (myself included) until recently that Amtrak would not make any service changes and would instead take out one Viewliner I for each Viewliner II delivered. The second initial outcome is that all of the Viewliner II cars are placed in service without any reduction in Viewliner Is. There could be some sort of middle result but there is no reason to believe that's in the offing.

My theory is that given the intentions of the incoming administration it is very dangerous politically for Amtrak to take these cars out of service, especially if they are otherwise in good running order. Even worse if they take the cars out of service without having a plan in place for the modifications.

What would work well for them would be to put everything in service (with normal provisions for reserves) and use the new cars to improve their financial results on as many long distance routes as possible. At this stage of the game that's the smart choice. Given the above it makes perfect sense to consider what the best options for deployment would be.

My only assumption about the V-II order was that the critical part of the order for baggage and diner cars came first, in order to replace Heritage cars of the same type. V-I's are not heritage. Now, they may replace H-Sleepers that are left: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heritage_Fleet#Roster" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; but I have no idea what's still left in the fleet. The V-I's are "only" 20 years old and there are (or were, depending on wreck cars) 50 of them. Add 25 V-II's, you've now got 75 Viewliner sleepers in the fleet. I'm sure they could find a couple in there for 66/67.

As I'm sure you're aware there are no Heritage sleepers whatsoever in revenue service and only one (maybe two?) working in Executive service.

There are 2 remaining Heritage Sleeper,Pacific Cape,used as the "staff" sleeper with Beech Grove,the other is
the sleeper with the Exibit Train as a "staff" only office/lounge area.

If it's possible to "bring back" the exec sleeper (pick up/drop off) at NY Penn,would putting a "ground power" plug in
at the Mail platform be possible for that purpose?

Jeff Smith wrote:Add 25 V-II's, you've now got 75 Viewliner sleepers in the fleet. I'm sure they could find a couple in there for 66/67.

It really does start to look like a very large addition when you assume that there will not be any new routes (other than 66/67). All kinds of interesting possibilities come to mind. Executive sleepers are one. Flexible consist management is another. [Redacted and sent to "Sleeper expansion" thread]

bostontrainguy wrote:Considering a new sleeper-equipped Twilight Shoreliner:

Would it make more sense to serve Raleigh, NC (POP 431,746) instead of Newport News (POP 182,159)? Raleigh is a growing Capital city and rail service is expanding in that area. Newport News seems like a rather small market to serve with sleeper service.

The schedule would work something like this:
BOS 9:30PM / NYP 2:30AM / WAS 7:00AM / Raleigh 12:30PM (connect to a 12:45PM later-scheduled Piedmont?)
Raleigh 5:00PM / WAS 10:30PM / NYP 3:00AM / BOS 8:00AM (connection from existing 3:21PM Piedmont)

This of course all gets even better when the "S" Line gets reactivated. (The future "S" Line provides a more direct route for Richmond–Raleigh trains saving an hour versus their current routing along the A Line through Selma).

Also suggested long ago that a sleeper-equipped Night Owl and an extended Palmetto could be combined so that through sleeper service could run along the entire east coast. The train would run pretty much opposite of the schedule of existing Silver Service. Arriving in Florida in the morning and leaving later in the day would allow connections to the huge cruise ship market (now requiring overnight hotel stays due to the late arrival and early departures of current Amtrak trains) and an extra day in the sun. Maybe even run it down the FEC which would add the busy Port Canaveral cruiseport which is now very inconvenient.

I often think about a one seat ride between Boston/New England and Florida. I'm pretty sure you can't add trains on Shore Line East but the idea of combining the Night Owl and Palmetto sounds like a good idea to me.

I will assume the 65/67 southbound using the 67 (leaving BOS Sun-Thur) schedule to allow for more time in NYP. The 67 gets to Richmond at 9:44am. To match up with the Silver Star, assume 67 leaves Richmond at 10:17am (7 hrs earlier than 91). Then you would have Raleigh 2:01pm, Columbia SC 6:38am, Savannah 9:13am (around same time as 89), Jacksonville 11:39pm, Orlando 3:06am (for this discussion I will assume it terminates in ORL). Getting to Orlando at that time is a deal breaker. You could move it to leave BOS 4 hours earlier (5:30pm) to arrive in ORL at 11:06pm (added bonus of leaving NYP before midnight although WAS winds up in the graveyard shift). Moving the schedule backwards won't help much since you probably can't leave BOS after 11:30pm and that would get you to ORL at 5:06am. You could save about two hours between Richmond and Savannah by using the Silver Meteor route but that cuts out Raleigh.

Northbound the 66 leaves Richmond at 7:00pm. Using the 92 schedule shifted 6 hours (probably don't need that much time in Richmond but it matches the 92 hourly) you get Orlando 1:32am, Jacksonville 5:03am, Savannah 7:22am, Columbia SC 10:01am, Raleigh 2:45pm, Richmond 6:07pm. If you left Orlando at 6:32am then it gets to Richmond by 11:07pm then using 66's schedule WAS 3:10am, PHL 5:05am, NYP 6:40am, BOS 12:58pm. Leaving Orlando before midnight in this case gets you to BOS too early.

It's hard to use the current 65/67-66 schedule without arriving/leaving ORL in the graveyard shift. And if you change the Night Owl to leave/arrive in WAS in the graveyard shift it would take away the opportunity for overnight WAS-BOS travel. Richmond to Orlando is around 17 hours southbound. You could extend the 93 (M-F) to Orlando leaving Richmond at 9:17pm and arriving in ORL at 2:06pm although that would be too close to the Silver Meteor arrival time in Orlando. If 174 was extended (currently leaves Richmond at 7:00am) it would leave ORL at 1:32pm, also pretty close to the SM.

Bostontrainguy suggested a train arriving in Orlando/Miami before the cruises leave and leaving after the cruises get in. But since ORL to BOS is around 30 hours then to arrive in ORL at 7:06am you'd have to leave BOS at 1:30am and to leave ORL at 10:32pm you'd arrive in BOS at 4:58am and in either case you'd have a schedule way different than the current NEC Richmond-Boston train you would replace. You could also extend the Silver Star to BOS and have one of the current Richmond-Boston trains terminate in New York.