Ex-Canadian ALCO units - status/performance

How are those BIG smoky ALCOs running these days? Are they being used down the Tier onto the Southern Division? Are they road worthy or troublesome these days.

All operating except 3662 aka 77. Seem to run fine to me. All over the place. LAst time I was out, 3674 was in Binghamton.

The "big smoky Alcos" usually cause a westbound SU-99 to stall at least twice a week on the grades in NJ. The crews hate them. They're antique, poorly maintained dinosaurs that are on the railroad for one reason...they're cheap. I'm guessing that it doesn't really much matter if a garbage train is delayed. These engines may be popular with railfans....I like Alcos myself, but, for the people trying to make a living while running trains they're a big thorn in their respective sides.
Picture yourself making a 10-12 hour 250 mile car trip in a 35 year old worn out car with no air conditioning and poor, at best, heat, that breaks down or stalls every hour or so....and you're expected to fix it yourself and patch it together to get to your destination. That's basically the conditions that the crews are working under in the "big, smoky Alcos".

Back in the early days, NYSW had a team of crackerjack mechanics who could patch up the SD45s, C430s and GP18s and keep them running. It wasn't unusual to have mechanics riding with some of the units after they were fixed.

Based on what I'm hearing on the scanner, the locomotives are in much worse condition, and the mechanics don't have the access they once did.

I'm clueless as to what they have been doing recently with routings and motive power. The M&E AIR seems to do wonders keeping their Alcos roadworthy.

These "canadian cigars" the NYS&W is using seem to ready for the boneyard. Why on earth do they need high HP, six axle smokers on the slow road. Why?

trainwayne1 wrote:The "big smoky Alcos" usually cause a westbound SU-99 to stall at least twice a week on the grades in NJ. The crews hate them. They're antique, poorly maintained dinosaurs that are on the railroad for one reason...they're cheap. I'm guessing that it doesn't really much matter if a garbage train is delayed. These engines may be popular with railfans....I like Alcos myself, but, for the people trying to make a living while running trains they're a big thorn in their respective sides.
Picture yourself making a 10-12 hour 250 mile car trip in a 35 year old worn out car with no air conditioning and poor, at best, heat, that breaks down or stalls every hour or so....and you're expected to fix it yourself and patch it together to get to your destination. That's basically the conditions that the crews are working under in the "big, smoky Alcos".

I would not blame it all on the Alco's. They were rebuilt by the Cartier and upgraded at the same time.Those Alcos have wheel slip control that will easely out pull the EMD's the NYSW have right now. When you mix the two makes together, it will cause poor performance.
I do agree that they are NOT being maintained....nothing new there. Most power that NYSW uses is not maintained..and it shows. Last I heard, they don't even have a CMO at present. (Where is Frank Larkin when you need him?)
The Alcos would be better off on the D-L where they will get the needed TLC.

Alcoman...I couldn't agree more with your assesment of the situation...I was just echoing the sentiments of the crews that run them as read on the Y groups NYS&W forum. I'm sure that the railroads mix and match policy does nothing except throw gas on the fire. It seems the biggest part of the maintenence problems are A.The Susquehanna is short of reliable power andtheunits do not get much, if any preventitive maintanence, and the little bit of attention they do get is merely patches on the problem, just to get the locos back on the road as quickly as possible, and B., the units seem to be turned back eastbound in Binghamton and very seldom get to the Utica shops for any "real" repairs.....everything done to them is pretty much a quick fix that will bypass the problem temporarily, but not really fix it. The D-L and M&E units are usually in the home shops on a regular basis where they can receive proper repairs, so comparing them to the NYS&W is pretty much an apples to oranges situation..The same was true when the units were on The Cartier....their shop forces were Alco mechanics, not jacks-of -all-makes as the limited mechanical people on the NYS&W are expected to be. I've worked in the transportation business my whole life, mostly in trucking, and can't begin to count the number of times I've heard someone in management say to the shop people, "I don't care what it REALLY needs.....just get it on the road....that load HAS to move".

It's unfair to say those Alco's are the cause of the woes on the road. We stalled trains several times a week, when I was there, with SD-45's, SD-40's and even those GE demonstrators.If we pulled a train up the mountain, with 8 locos on the point, and we stalled, how can Alco be to blame? Sparta is a respectable grade, with some tight turns, and any leaves, or water (snow, frost, dew, etc..) on the rail will diminish the adhesion of even the mightiest of locos. As far as A/C goes, most locos built in the last 40 years don't have A/C, excepting the "new" stuff, and some locos retrofitted by their owners. We operate those locos every day, all over the US, and those crews survive them. I prefer not having air, myself, so I can open the windows and maybe even the doors, and enjoy some fresh air, and leaning out the window, like an engineer, not like some poor soul trapped inside a metal box, breathing recycled air. We ran those SD-70's on the I&O, and stalled them on our grades every day. They are "new", and even have A/C, so your point is somewhat off center. As far as "smokers" goes, you must not get to see many GE's where you are at. Every bit as smokey as any Alco, and much less pleasing to the eyes, and ears. My engineer friends relate they enjoy the old gals, and love slugging it out, with the grade at Sparta. Sometimes I wish I was still there, to get in on some of that, myself..........

Quite honestly Golden Arm, I respect and enjoy your comments here and on other threads....there's no better teacher than the experience of someone who's "been there, done that". I don't fault the Alcos themselves, but do think that at their age, they need to maintained a bit better if they're expected to perform up to their capabilities. As to the crews liking them, as I said, I was only echoing the comments on another forum of the enginemen who are running them on the NYS&W. As mentioned, there can be any number of reasons for a train to stall, but in listening to the scanner on more than several occasions, I have heard the conversations between engineer and the Cooperstown dispatcher when 1 or more of the Alcos has gone offline and the conductor is running between units trying to get them back online while the train is making 3 mph up the grade out of Butler. It does make for great railfanning to have one of the GP-18's run the 20 or so miles from it's local WS assignment to push the stalled train up the hill.....where else can you see a GP-18 in pusher service in 2006?

I have worked my share of Alco's of all types over the years and I can
truthfully say that the C's were as good in most cases as the GE U class.
Much easier to operate and much more responsive to throttle position.
I am sure that these engines had decent maintenance in Canada and in
consideration of where they operated these engines, I suspect that the
cab heat was pretty good too.
I think the NYS&W likes them because they are cheap, fairly reliable and
not fuel hogs like some other units are. There have been plenty of GE's
around and many are being sold for scrap, I think the NYS&W believes
that they have a better locomotive with the Alco's and I kind of think they
probably do have with them.
Compared with the GE's of the same era, I think the Alco's give a good
account of themselves.
Noel Weaver

TW1, we are running SD-40,s SD-45,s, and other locos, that are also as old as those Alco's. (30 years old) When I ran the mountain at Sparta, with SD-45's, C-430's, SD-40's, etc., we often "died" on the hill, due to slipping wheels, too much tonnage, loco failures on line of road, etc. We did stall on the hill, with the GE's, as well. The hill takes it's toll on many a train, with all units still operating. The Alco's are as good as any other power the "Q" is running, and it might be true that they need some work, but they do hit the shops every 92 days, for a Government mandated inspection. Often times, repairs must wait, until scheduled shop time, and as long as the problems aren't "FRA reportable" defects, that would take the locos out of service, they remain out there, doing the duties assigned to them. Watching this thread, I notice a lot of "displeasure" for the "things" as some folks call them. They are ALCOS, and there was a time, not too long ago that the NYSW was an all Alco road, so I don't get the whole deal, about the "things". (must be kids, who never saw Alcos in service, and think that -9's and SD-90's are the only locos worth looking at. How sad ) Since Walter re-opened that line, over Sparta, trains have been stalling there, and will probably continue to do so, until the line is no more. Poorly maintained power is only a piece of the puzzle. Managers who dream up unrealistic tonnage ratings, for their locos, and who under-estimate actual tonnage of trains, are a larger part of the problem, on many roads today. We burnt up one of those SD-70's, and blew up a second one, pulling tonnage at single digit speeds, over the mountains on the I&O. By burnt up, I mean that, it caught fire, and burnt up. I stalled several times, and had to be rescued, by geeps, and tunnel motors, while running those SD-70's. Conrail had no problems with the Alcos, in fact, they were used in the heaviest service CR had, dragging ore trains. They were run to failure, as part of a plan to eliminate them from the roster, in a desire to purge the system of a builder no longer in existence. They performed duties that would have destroyed the EMD's or GE's, if used (abused) under the same circumstances. Those who blame Alcos, for whatever reason, are either mis-informed, or are prejudiced, against them. They really were (are) some very powerful, and highly prized units to operate, from an engineers point of view. Just an opinion though........

In the first ALCo go-around with the C430s, NYSW had the benefit of many mechanical experts with very long, ALCo specific specific work history. George Hockaday, who consulted for many lines, is an excellent example.

As Golden-Arm notes, these units are 30-35 years old, and parts wear out, replacement parts may not be immediately available, and mechanics may have divided expertise working with GE EMD and ALCo power.

Good discussion thread going so far. Any stalling or breakdowns on MN or the Tier? Imagine the "Q" fouling up the rush hour on the MN w/these smoky Alcos?

To the non operating people who post here I have to agree with Noel and Golden-arm. When its gets down and dirty and your dropping into the single digits on less than ideal rail with a heavy train, you cant beat a set of six axle Alcos. Back in the Penn Central days I ran many an Ore Extra out of Morrisville PA. to Enola, tonnage could run as high as 14000 tons. The preferred power among the PC enginemen was 3 E-44a electrics, next up six axle Century Alcos, six axle EMDs , six axle GE's and three GG-1s in that order. For low speed lugging power you cant beat ALCO and The Susie is a low speed lugger type operation. While I believe Walter Rich is a railfan these units probably came on the market at the right price and fit in with his operating plan. Enjoy the old dinosaurs while they make their last stand, I know I do.

Probably the most significant sentence spoken, in this thread. Those Alco's are making the "last stand", as we speak. get your pix, videos or whatever, while you can. The last stand of these giant beasts is being made daily. Consider yourself lucky enough to enjoy what will be only a memory, in a relatively short time frame, from today. I envy Ron, and "the boys", for the chance to do what they are doing. Seldom does one get to participate in the making of the history...........