Downeast Scenic Railroad (DSRX) Discussion - 2005-2010

A "multi-use" trail bringing tourists to it regularly........Get Real. Every state has it's own rail trails. Why would anyone come from out of the area JUST to follow another one? Seems the Maine Government has screwed Washington County just about every chance they get. The whole Calais Branch trail project sounds like its what the legislators want to do more than anything. If MeDOT was smart, they'd ban ATVs and dirt bikes before the trail was even done. All it will take is one a-hole to screw it up for everyone before the trail is closed to motorized vehicles. Like none of the other hundreds of rail trails in the country have good scenery. Hmm, think I'll travel back to my old home to CT so I can hike a yuppie trail.

Only 35,000 residents in Washington County........Your point being that business opportunities are few and far between. No DUH! You have the tone that all railroads were built on existing customer base. Ever research, say, the Western Railroad of Massachusetts? From TRAINS in 4-2004, "this railroad reached beyond the point of existing settlement and the expectation of immediate traffic, and had to wait for the develoment of the countryside to follow in its path." That was in 1841. Known now as the CSX Boston Line, its today's busiest railroad in New England.

Existing business, no. Potential bulk.......container traffic, LPG, and coal. That's not even including attracting trackside customers. Lord knows they're not all just waiting trackside for a train to run, but come on........That mentality of "NO customers right here, right now" has killed many a line before its rightful time. Somebody would have to show the effort, and only a select few have made that. Certainly not many of the
pencil-pushing bureaucrats.

Only 35,000 residents in Washington County........Your point being that business opportunities are few and far between. No DUH!

If I'm stating the obvious, why is there so much opinion to the opposite of mine?

If they build it, they will come! First of all, this ain't 1841, and, ah, I haven't seen any new businesses spring up on the Rockland branch. I'll play along, however...

So coal, LPG and containers (and let's add gravel)... OK, the millions are spent to get the line in shape... who are your customers?

Coal: There are no mines in the area, so I'm assuming you mean for consumption. Who is/would burn coal downeast? The mill in Woodland doesn't count as they already have the opportunity to source coal by rail and do not.

LPG: Maybe talking 50-100 cars annually. LPG can be competitively trucked from St John refinery and rail terminals around Bangor.

Gravel: Not sure what potential is, but with a multitude of gravel pits throughout the state, I can't imagine that there is significant need to rail aggregate north or west.

Containers: The Calais branch serves no ports/potential container ports, so are you referring to potential local shippers/receivers? Who are these companies that already exist/will spring up with the railroad? And if there WAS traffic, no railroad establishes container terminals every few miles, so you'd be looking at one in Calais, period. So the guy in Franklin trucks his container 40 miles to Bangor to be ramped...

Yes, Cowford, build it, and they will come. You have that " I believe it when I see it attitude. Here is the deal: Your type of thinking is similar to rejection, instead of projection. It will take crisis situations such as fuel prices in the 6 to 8 dollar range per gallon before any vision ideas will come into your picture and it maybe to late. You have a very fuel efficient mode of transportation right there in your own backyard. The DSRR will spark interest, interest grow into ideas, ideas grow into business, businesses grow into expansions, expansions generate growth, growth fosters prosperity.

Never loose site that fuels prices are going to go higher and higher so now is the time to lay foundations for the future. Railroads build cities. There will always be holes blown into your facts listed. Why? Because railroads have been and always will be key generators. Press on DSRR. I've read that East of you are pulling up rails, I would be willing to bet, 100 per cent, that isn't happening to the West of the line. I've looked on the map and it seems you have major cities connecting. I doubt very much the rails are being lifted there.

Cowford,
Where do you get your numbers from?

Coal, iron ore, gypsum....since when does it have to terminate or even originate on line?
Look at P&W in southern NE. Comes in via Port of Providence from places such as Indonesia to the Mt. Tom plant in Holyoke, Massachusetts. Native Power River coal has come in via the west to power Bow as has domestic coal from the southeast. CN EXPORTS steel and iron ore to Japan! Coal is a great export as well, especially countries who aren't such tree huggers as ours!

LPG.....You seem stuck on the 50-100 a year car count. Man, even PAR/PAS's PL-1 does more than that, and it's route is far from the ocean.

Containers........You forget that Eastport had a 40mil+upgrade in the past decade?
I'd be more worried about PAS not being able to move the stuff beyond Brewer than keeping the trains full. Let's see, JB Hunt, Schneider, and Sunbury come to mind.
Ever seen some of the container ships that go into ports around this country? Eastport could even be an answer to Canadian interests who nead an ice free port during winter.

You also seem to miss how important lumber is to this whole State. Washington Junction has a business that sells to EBS and only wholesale. Some of the best wood I've ever seen. EBS and other lumber outlets along the line east of WJ could benefit greatly from a bulk transfer terminal for instead of having to wait on a truck. This goes WAY more than just wood. Scrap dealers, bulk fertilizers, chemicals, you name it.

In essence, an intact line would probably have to operate more like a transfer road from rail to water and reverse. It would take some effort to locate customers ON the road or trackside to start. However, what way do you attract business to rail without the potential rail being there? By the way, glad you got absolutely NOTHING out of the 1841 bit other than the year change. In grade school English.....That railroad was BUILT NEW(not fixed) with the chance no business would follow. Well, it did and the rest is history. The Calais Branch, already in place now (would be rebuilt.) A lot more to start with compared to back then, including people. The Rockland Branch it is not. Nearly 80 more miles of possibility in the eyes of many other than the select few on here.

Before I forget, the Eastort Branch WOULD have to be reconnected to the mainline. The town begged for rail service, yet the State has pretty much ignored their cries each time. So, guess that fuels the nay-sayers flames again.

Rocky, have you ever been to Washington County? With all due respect, you may need to better understand the area.

First, if you totalled the population of all the towns formerly served by the ~135-mile Calais branch, you're looking at maybe 20,000 tops. Conclusion: Passenger service? Not even close to feasible. Again, the area supports less than two bus trips per day.

Second, it's at the "end of the line" in the US. Canada is immediately east, and rail service between the US and Atlantic Canada is adequately provided by the former CP line (through Maine) and CN (over the top). Conclusion: There is no overhead rail traffic potential.

Third, Industrial development. As it IS at the end of the line, Washington County is at a logistical disadvantage. Add to that a lack of significant workforce, the general anti-business reputation of Maine, and the general disinterest the area shows in industrial development (refinery rejected; LNG terminal rejected), there are plenty of other more strategically located places in North America with rail service and a more pro-business attitude. Conclusion: Heavy industry development prospects? Dim (at least until many attitudes are changed)

Fourth, import/export. The branch serves no ports. Eastport? It's not equipped to handle containers, and even if you put the rail back in, it's surrounded by bigger, ice-free ports (Halifax, St John, Searsport, Portland), so would face an uphill battle on trying to win ANY port business. The only thing that keeps Eastport alive is export woodpulp from the mill in Woodland. You may... MAY... get Domtar to convert to rail, but it would be a two-road haul on a 35-mile move (read thin margins). Conclusion: Woodland's business... MAYBE... other opportunity. Slim-to-none.

Finally local/terminated/originated traffic. LPG? Mine is a rough estimate based on population. And that'll be tough going too. The line would compete with truck-based product from Irving's St John refinery, as well as product coming out of GSR's RAIL terminal on the MMA in Hermon. (I might be off a bit on this, but I believe the MMA terminal receives 300-400cars/yr.) Gravel? State records indicate there are over 600 sand and gravel pits. Where's all the Calais branch gravel going to go? Lumber? In Washington Jct? Transloading to rail is available less than 40 miles away on MMA. (Consider that rail transloads typically serve a 100-150-mile radius.) Other traffic, like gypsum, coal, and iron ore??? Gypsum's predominant use: wallboard. Origins: naturally occuring deposits (not in ME) and as a coal power plant scrubber by-product (not in ME). Likelihood of these ever moving on the Calais branch? Let me know when they build a coal plant or steel mill in Cherryfield.

C'branch, I'd prefer to be classified as a realist instead of a naysayer. Oh well. I mean no disrespect, but I've spent my entire career in rail business development and shipper logistics, so I have a pretty good idea on what's feasible and what isn't.

Cowford,

The statistics made are informative indeed, but our bones to pick come from the angle of visionary vs. "realist." My point of the 1840 comparison is things were way less predictable and populations were lower in the era. Yet, look what rose from then through 1900 alone. You can use all the numbers you want from paper. So, are we supposed so throw our hands in the air and say," Yeah, their economic history and potential outlooks suck. Forget ever trying to do anything but the status quo. They'll have to remain 20-30 years behind the rest of the country's progress. It's only eastern Maine afterall."

Never said build a coal plant on the Calais line. That would be a total over-the-road commodity that could use the artery to either come in to port or go out of it.

I do know what you mean about people's lack of starting ANYTHING new in Washington County. Even just a few years in Steuben drove that point home. But be serious, what the heck is a multi-use trail really going to bring economically? The salvaged rail will probably pay the salary of a few fat, useless politicians who don't give a crap about anything out this way anyhow. So while the average numbers might not favor rehab of the branch, I would never let them totally predict the outcome of future economy. Seeing more and more trucks for sale due to gas prices really brings that home. BTW,
no disrespect felt.

CB, I understand your points about being visionary, and I agree... but it's not me that has to be the visionary; it's the local citizens and local and state governments. I'm merely taking the position of a railroad guy. No-one (public or private) would plop one cent into that line unless a return on investment is predicted... which would require large-scale industrial development. I've seen scant evidence that the folks up there even WANT economic progress.

Keep in mind that the Eastport port rehab was not "build it and they will come" money, it was the Woodland mill saying "build it or we'll go away!" That investment was justified based on supporting EXISTING business. Now if, say a large-scale refinery was pushed forward Downeast, THEN it would be appropriate to start evaluation for public/private investment for reactivation. Not before. Remember, the line can be reactivated a lot sooner than when the refinery would start pumping out tonnage.

Even though the time to strike has likely passed, about the only hope I'd see for rail-based industry there is petrochemical development. In that I am a visionary. I say, bring it on! In the meantime, I guess we'll have to be satisfied with the pittance cast into the economy by the likes of the Downeast Scenic and Rail Trail tourism.

I find it incredibly lame that Eastport wouldhave to pretty much depend on Canadian railroad influence when both it and Calais sit on our side of the border. Everybody cries about our economy being in a recession, yet we let our borders be controlled by interests on the other side of the line. Wanting to....."see da' money" or instant return on investment is totally UNrealistic when it comes to basically starting a railroad over from the ground up. It's an often-slow process.

NOTHING has been done with this line for over 20 years now while everyone has dinked around while it rotted away. In some regards, you can say the stubborn and sparse population along it got what they deserved. I'm all over the Downeast Scenic! I was up here just a bit too late, or else I would have LOVED to help their cause when looking to acquire the whole Calais Branch. Even though I would have enjoyed seeing trains roll along the hillside at Cards Crossing in Franklin or through outback rock cuts in Unionville, at least people will be able to legally get in those places and see what a train could have. WHEN that might be is anyone's guess. Cable Pool in Cherryfield just won't be the same, though.

Today, the container company in Portland announced discontinuance of service, based on the fact that Old Town export pulp (essentially all of their business) has gone away. They stated that if enough business returns they'll consider coming back. This strikes me as similar to the Calais branch issue. If the business develops, the transportation service will follow... not the other way around. If you follow the "other way around" without identifying specifically what business will follow, you can rationalize building/re-opening any line, anywhere, for any cost!

I don't buy that philosophy. Using what you said about the container company does not reflect a mode of transportation, just a business decision. To illustrate that analogy would be like let's build a major city, and then get the Railroad to run a line through it. Sounds like the container company relied heavy on that one customer. This isn't a mode of transportation issue. More like lack of a sound customer base.

Rocky, To quote CB, "No duh!" Can we at least agree that the railroad has to have a reason to run, i.e. a "sound customer base?" Which requires railroad shippers/receivers, no? OK, so if the branch got reactivated, what specific rail-related business is going to start popping up on the line? And it's pointless to use generalities like containers / gravel / LPG / etc. without at least SOME justification. In other words...

I'm the realist that has specifically stated my points about traffic potential (or lack thereof)... so let's hear it from the visionary's perspective: The branch is up and running... rebuilt with 136 lb welded rail, concrete ties, advanced Positive Train Control, long passing sidings, a fleet of shiny EMD SD-whatevers, and a modern hump yard in Ellsworth. (Ok, that's going too far. ) What exactly is it that you expect they would be hauling, based on current or potential industry/industrial development, over the next 10 years???

Vision, Guts, Paradigm change, Forward thinking, Promoting, Sell the line to Visionaries, Explore the uncertainty unknown, invest, Get my point? Bottom line is when it really effects the back pocket to a point it becomes a matter of economic survival, reaction instead of planned action predominates. Mark this as a point in time. Diesel is at $ 4.90 plus a gallon and when demand steadily rises to a point where it's just to expensive to haul by truck, Railroads will step in and make it happen. Then, people will change their whole perception, comments, and opinions to the other side. Human nature has this way about them that some label as hypocrisy. The back pocket rules.

My bet is idle lines will become a new focus in light of rising fuel costs and most likely be brought back to the drawing table.

[moved to the New England Forum, since this is about a new railroad, not a historic pre-1983 B&M or MEC operation-omv]

In the end, this back and forth is going to pointless anyway. We all know those "dreams" that Cowford was throwing in there for sarcasm ain't gonna happen. Man, just 100-115 pound semi-used stick rail, rebuilding several short sidings, having a max 25mph with block signaling and "inhouse" dispatching from a shed in Washington Junction would be closer to reality.

Sure, it's not like we're back at the beginning of the railroad boom. Nowadays, everyone is skeptical when lots of the green is to be handed out. The economy has tanked and state goverments are tight. However, I never knew of a local or small-scale economy to form a base without some sort of risky proposition or optimism being in the equation. It's impossible to guarantee 100% success last time I checked. The ultimate way for something to work like this is for our parties to meet in the middle. Go out and get some public opinion, their input on the present structure, etc. I can't tell you how many locals from out east hate the thought of trail users going through their front yards with ATVs, snowmobiles and the like. You can motivate a lot of minds when they see an effort is being made for them to be heard. In the case of the Calais Line, many folks simply didn't know what the heck was going on with it. Now, it's kind of too late.

Personally, I think it's way easier to convince people of potential rail service only if the rail is in place waiting on a rehab. I can count on one hand how many times a railroad has been abandoned and removed only to be reinstalled again down the road. That was for passenger service. In the end, the only downeast mainline railroad that would remain in Washington County with the removal of the Calais Branch will be of Canadian interests. How screwed up is that? Talk about screwing a whole region out of a mode for transportation