Diesel to 3rd Rail-- then back?

I was at the east end of the platform in Hicksville the morning of 24 May when train 615 arrived, the 0841 dual-mode train to NY Penn. The 504 leading was silent, so I assumed the 517 at the rear of the eight-car train would be too. And I thought it was-- but when the train left Jamaica the 517 was unquestionably shoving in diesel.

Any reason why they'd shift to third-rail power east of Hicksville and back to diesel? Or must I not have been listening hard enough? The lead unit was definitely silent at Hicksville; do they ever run with one unit in diesel and the other third-rail?

We were doing 73-74 mph through Westbury and Carle Place, so no indication of a problem.

I was under the impression the DMs only run in the "E" mode when running through the East River tubes, starting the diesels when in Sunnyside. Though why spend millions of $s for a system that runs for only a very short time? They should be able to run in the "E" mode all the way to the end of the thrid rail territory, saving fuel. But, hey what am I saying! This is the LIRR, that makes too much sence, I'm sorry.

Mike

LIRR

"L"ogic "I"s "R"eally "R"equired

That also goes for other thins too, not just limited to "LIRR"

Even better, I've heard rumors that they're gonna dump DM operation altogether...

They used to run E mode as much as possible until a few units burnt. Apparently, it's only a problem at the east end of the island, since they still run E mode from Jamacia to NYP

For what they got out of the DM-30s and what they cost, I don't get why they even bothered. I'm still waiting for my one seat ride from Glen Head...

Mike the DMs spend much more time in electric mode then you may realize. W/B trains are required to switch to electric mode well east of Jamaica ( I believe it is at Port for trains on the Montauk Branch and Nassau for trains using the Mainline) This way if the engines cannot make the change over the train can be terminated at Jamaica and the passengers can be put on another train. If the same thing occured in F or Harold then we are talking about rerouting to HPA or worse making a reverse move through F & Harold in the middle of Rush hour ...not good. So it would seem Joe, that in this case the RR is using logic

Nasadowsk, better get a train schedule.Train 503 leaves OB at 5.50am and arrives in Penn ast 706am. Train 564 leaves Penn at 6.17pm and arrives in OB at 760pm. I assure you that both trains stop at Glen Head so your one seat ride is available and as far as I know has been since the DMs were put is service. Of course as you are reading you are most likely saying "Wow big deal 2 trains a day" and I agree, more service is needed, but a one seat ride to Glen Head is available.

You're darn right I'm going to say that.

Neither train runs at a useful time for me.

In the late 90's, the LIRR promised it'd be a one seat ride. and not one round trip a day. In fact, the LIRR's spokeperson said it would be 'no different from an electric'. I have the Newsday clip up on the board in my room.

We were promised it (and increased service, it seems back then a few trains went away for a trackwork program, and didn't return), and didn't really get it - we get one a day, and that's when it runs, and I've heard it's hardly reliable.

We nearly didn't get any, period. It was only after Nassau publicly threatened to withhold funding that the LIRR caved in and gave us one.

Oh yeah, the short lived double switch stunk too.

I really don't get the LIRR's attitude toward the OB line. We get shafted with lousy schedules, lousy equipment, and lousy service. It has virtually no ridership, yet it's a two track line. It's electrified to East Wiliston (with one MU run a day!), but no further. And when you get down to it, it's STILL easier to drive to Port Washington or Mineola and get many more, faster trains to choose from.

The ridership is there along the line, it's the service that's missing.

Nasadowski, just because the train does not fit your schedule does not change the fact the a one seat ride does exist to and from your station. And if the RR where to added more DM service on the branch it would be during AM and PM peak, so I guess it still wouldn't work for you.
As far as the rest of your post we are in agreement. Other then peak service the branch is not well served, and this contrubutes to overcrowding on the PW line.

OB line I think uses mostly DMs, which is a waste.

LIRR really needs to take a BIG step back, look at the whole system, and figure out just how the hell they can get more one seat rides in. Port Jeff and OB lines need it the most, IMO, with the Montauk following closely, and then maybe have one, non-transfer train, on friday evening to Greenport, and on sunday midday to NYP.

Blue,

Thanks for that info. I then stand corrected.

Mike

How hard would it be to extend the PW line east @ GN/Manhasseet to the OB line @ Roslyn,, Pulling up the tracks from there south to Mineola. What are we talking, 5 miles....

Same thing happened yesterday 25 May on the same train: both units in electric at Hicksville, and the trailing unit (at least) shoving out of Jamaica in diesel. Same today; this time (after boarding in Hicksville) I stepped onto the platform at Mineola and the trailing unit was silent at that point. I stood at the back door of the last car and tried to hear the diesel start up, but couldn't. But it was running at Jamaica.

Nimbykiller is right. 50% of the DE/DM's are DM's, but a much smaller percentage of non-mu trains are one seat rides. Too many DM's are used for DE service.

The East River tunnels have no excess capacity during peak hours. Therefore every new DM train to Penn will mean the loss of an MU train. However, there may be more customers better served by taking about 3 of the least popular MU's to Penn, make them "change at Jamaica" trains, and add about 3 of the what would be the most popular DM's to Penn. This way about 25% (instead of about 12% currently) of the peak trains on the diesel branches would be direct to Penn.

If we were running the railroad, we might be reluctant to do this because the 3000 MU customers would probably be more unhappy than the 3000 DM customers would be happy. (?)

Another option would be to replace about 6 weekday off-peak diesel "change at..." with the same number of DM trains direct to Penn.

A third option would be to have a large number of weekend DM's to Penn.

The fact that the LIRR ordered a large number of DM's, but provides only a token amount of one seat to Penn service, makes me think that the LIRR always wanted this approach to fail in order to get the public to push for electrification. I think there is an institutional mindset that says electrification is the only way to provide decent service. This attitude destines alternative solutions to fail.

Would the OB branch benefit to be fully eletrified. therefore leaving all DE/DM service to the montauk/greenport/PJ lines. then incerse local diesel service with the DE's then between every few DE's run a DM 1 seat ride. keep the DE's in Diesel terrortory. over all there would be more to this idea to make it really work, so ill put the above out there to think about.

Yes, the OB line WOULD. Even if it 'only' ran to FBA most of the time.

Realize, even with the DMs, diesels can't go to FBA, and won't be able to go to GCT, or lower Manhattan, if either of those are built. They physically can't fit ito the 63rd St tunnel, or to FBA.

As for the LIRR's mindset? IMHO, it's anti electric in the last few years. The DM-30 was a stupid idea from the outset, and looking back at the results, it's money that was wasted, where better, less expensive equipment could have been used, and electrification extended. DMUs should have been looked at, IMHO. Yes, they wouldn't bring a 'one seat ride', but they would have offered vastly improved performance, and likely have been cheaper. And more reliable.

To say nothing of Comet cars and a decent AC traction diesel.

Realistically, the PJ line needed to be electric 10 years ago, and the OB line should be now too, if only to have parity with other lines, which might help with the weird balance of ridership in the area (ask anyone near an OB line station if they ever use the train. Then ask from what station...). To PD tower would make sense too at this point.

Phil since you got all the answers lets get a petition started to fire all those LIRR idiots that don't know what they do, lets dismiss the MTA board and lets make Phil the executrive director of LIRR ??
People like you who constantly tell the Railroad how dumb they are, make Railroads hate railfans.
Do you realy think that the LIRR Executives with a combined College input of about 120 years and LIRR Technical people who have a combined college input of about 160 years. are there waiting for a junior electrical genius with 4 years to correct them all the time ??