Detroit OTP woes continue

Freep article noting that OTP is 33% these days, mostly due to the usual suspect - NS in Northwest Indiana.

https://www.freep.com/story/news/local/ ... VRBUAksngM

At this point it's a "cut your losses" situation. Amtrak and the state of Michigan are in a state of animosity. Detroit is growing again and this corridor is vibrant, and would be brilliant if it could run on time and/or have a few more frequencies or new equipment.

Meanwhile, every move lately has been a really bad one. The third main on NS was something I predicted would fall flat, and it has. What a joke. The rolling stock procurement has gone the way of most Amtrak rolling stock procurements - bloody awful. It's time to give Amtrak a pink slip and open the route up for bids. It's also time for the state of Michigan and Indiana to talk about pooling resources to upgrade the NICTD trackage. Per CSS management, the sticking point for operating Detroit trains over NICTD trackage was the single track east of Miller, which (a) is being remedied soon by Indiana; (b) the feds just paid for a third NS main which did little to nothing. There is also some bad blood between Amtrak and NICTD over dispatching at the Michigan City interlocker (Stevie Wonder could do better) so a new operator might remove that animosity from the equation.

It's time to ask: "Do we want effective passenger trains or do we want to keep the legacy of Penn Central?" and take the necessary steps to solve the problem. After 45 years Amtrak has just not solved the problem and frankly has no incentive to do so.

I am curious if anyone else could run this better if Amtrak cannot strong arm NS to get things in order in Northern Indiana. The SSL to Michigan City intrigues me, but what would be the actual route to Union Station?

I gave up on Wolverines during '12 when I came close to missing a concert in Ann Arbor. Here I was, trying to ride for A to B transportation - and darned near missed out on the trip's purpose.

Since then, it's been "rubber on the 94". I can stay on schedule when I'm behind the wheel - and can schedule in an excellent Prime Rib at Win Schuler's in Marshall.

rcthompson04 wrote: ↑Mon Feb 24, 2020 4:53 pm I am curious if anyone else could run this better if Amtrak cannot strong arm NS to get things in order in Northern Indiana. The SSL to Michigan City intrigues me, but what would be the actual route to Union Station?

Brings up a very good issue. I've long advocated to use Randolph Street Station (IE Millenium Station). It's cheap and easy. No silly standup/sitdown marching games behind an officious Amtrak employee. No holding trains full of 300 people waiting for 2 passengers off the late Builder or Eagle. The state of Michigan writes a check to stimulate commerce in Michigan by moving people between metro Detroit, rural Michigan, and metro Chicago. For 100 years Randolph Street has done a great job at low cost for Indiana, the same should be true for Michigan. It also gets you completely away from Norfolk Southern, which is not necessary to good regional service.

Gilbert B Norman wrote: ↑Mon Feb 24, 2020 5:05 pm I gave up on Wolverines during '12 when I came close to missing a concert in Ann Arbor. Here I was, trying to ride for A to B transportation - and darned near missed out on the trip's purpose.

Since then, it's been "rubber on the 94". I can stay on schedule when I'm behind the wheel - and can schedule in an excellent Prime Rib at Win Schuler's in Marshall.

This is how so many potential passengers approach the possibility of riding a train. If the train cannot run on time with some semblance of frequent service, the passengers walk away. With absolutely every strategy decision for passengers trains, planners should ask this question. "Can I get from A to B by this train without missing out on the trip's purpose?"

How to get NS to follow the program? NS continues to delay the Michigan trains. As well the Crescent both north and south of Atlanta and even Piedmonts in North Carolina. What was even worse is that NS stopped every train Amtrak train on its system around 1230 - 1430 yesterday for some kind of planned outage. Do not know if they told Amtrak, If it was some kind of IT upgrade it did not help today as Crescent #19 4+ hours late today. My suggestion is to call, write, & email your congress person to get this Amtrak proposal passed.

see page 29 last paragraph
https://www.amtrak.com/content/dam/proj ... Y21-25.pdf
This provisions will allow Amtrak to bring into court RRs that do not follow On time performance metrics. That will be in addition to DOJ also having the ability to so .

Tadman wrote: ↑Mon Feb 24, 2020 11:13 am Freep article noting that OTP is 33% these days, mostly due to the usual suspect - NS in Northwest Indiana.

https://www.freep.com/story/news/local/ ... VRBUAksngM

At this point it's a "cut your losses" situation. Amtrak and the state of Michigan are in a state of animosity. Detroit is growing again and this corridor is vibrant, and would be brilliant if it could run on time and/or have a few more frequencies or new equipment.

Meanwhile, every move lately has been a really bad one. The third main on NS was something I predicted would fall flat, and it has. What a joke. The rolling stock procurement has gone the way of most Amtrak rolling stock procurements - bloody awful. It's time to give Amtrak a pink slip and open the route up for bids. It's also time for the state of Michigan and Indiana to talk about pooling resources to upgrade the NICTD trackage. Per CSS management, the sticking point for operating Detroit trains over NICTD trackage was the single track east of Miller, which (a) is being remedied soon by Indiana; (b) the feds just paid for a third NS main which did little to nothing. There is also some bad blood between Amtrak and NICTD over dispatching at the Michigan City interlocker (Stevie Wonder could do better) so a new operator might remove that animosity from the equation.

It's time to ask: "Do we want effective passenger trains or do we want to keep the legacy of Penn Central?" and take the necessary steps to solve the problem. After 45 years Amtrak has just not solved the problem and frankly has no incentive to do so.

I'm sorry, clearly I'm missing something here. This is what I understand:

1) Amtrak is suffering from delays outside of their control (mostly). It's no secret that freight companies continually hold up Amtrak in the name of profits and the poorly thought out PSR fad, with NS and CN being the worst offenders. At this point, it's time for the federal government to get involved and start taking names and kicking a**.

2) One of the major chokepoints on the NS Chicago Line isn't controlled by any railroad; it's the lift bridge around CP 502. Last time I rode Amtrak to Chicago both my train (351) and 29 got held up at the bridge for a line of barges. Rebuild the bridge so marine traffic doesn't conflict with rail traffic.

3) Something that it appears most people are glossing over: Amtrak WAS NEVER DESIGNED TO BE SUCCESSFUL. The Nixon Admin thought pax rail would be done within five years of Amtrak's creation. Obviously, that didn't happen, and they have been treated like the red-headed stepchild ever since. Funding was never taken seriously until 2008 when PRIIA came about, and it still not at levels that it should be at. You want Amtrak to get better, provide superior service, and succeed? Then you ACTUALLY HAVE TO GIVE THEM THE MONEY TO DO SO. NON-NEGOTIABLE. END OF STORY.

4) Opening the route up for bids will not solve the root problem: OTP. Unless you move from the Chicago Line, things will not get better.

5) In what way has the procurement been "bloody awful"? As far as I know, the proposals haven't even been released yet.

6) Regarding the 3rd NS main: having the infrastructure doesn't mean jack if the host railroad cannot or will not operate their trains in an effective manner.

7) A major project listed in Amtrak's service plans was the acquirement and construction of an ROW between Porter and CUS that would be exclusively Amtrak.

8) Yes, CUS needs a major redesign in its boarding processes. It's little more than a cattle-pen.

So why are we treating OTP on the AML like it's solely Amtrak's fault and as a result, it's time to kick them out and hire a private operator that still won't solve the problem? We should be holding Amtrak accountable for what IS in their control and lobbying our government to fix the problems that AREN'T in Amtrak's control.

Call me an idealist. Stupid. Naive. Young. Whatever. If Amtrak was given the funding and power it should've had years ago we wouldn't be facing these issues.

The "Procurement" is controlled by the states involved, I doubt Amtrak has much influence on it at all.

Maybe Michigan should give themselves a pink slip for the procurement problems and let Amtrak do it instead. After all, the state was the one that took on the responsibility of purchasing their new locomotives and rolling stock.

How about a privately ran corporation which doesn't have to rely on the government for funding??? (You all saw this coming. )

Pensyfan19 wrote: ↑Mon Feb 24, 2020 9:13 pm How about a privately ran corporation which doesn't have to rely on the government for funding??? (You all saw this coming. )

Still doesn’t solve the root problem, boss.

That’s the problem with people in this country. Everything has to make a profit for it to be deemed a success. It’s so ingrained into society it’s like any other option is seen not just as wrong, but as un-American.

Don’t get me wrong, Amtrak needs to be able to take care of themselves as much as possible. But most of the passenger rail systems in the world are heavily subsidized by their governments. If Amtrak were given the money it deserves and should’ve had 40 years ago, the NEC maintenance backlog wouldn’t be where it is now, we wouldn’t be running with 40-50 year old cars, new routes would be in the works, and Amtrak could explore its own ROW in heavily congested areas like the Chicago Line.

You can’t cut your way to profitability and it’s well past time for Congress to pull their head out of the sand and realize that Amtrak is a vital public service that is here to stay, and it needs to be treated as such. There is so much potential for Amtrak to grow into new markets and make the changes they need to make to be successful, but without capital it won’t happen, just like any other business.

David Benton wrote: ↑Mon Feb 24, 2020 8:56 pm The "Procurement" is controlled by the states involved, I doubt Amtrak has much influence on it at all.

Even so, I’m not really sure what the issue is. The original manufacturer, a reputable company as far as I can tell (I believe they built the Metra cars) screwed up the project and had the contract yanked. It went to another reputable manufacturer who is delivering a product that seems to be working quite well in Florida and I’m anxious to see the results of the cold-weather testing in Ottawa. The Chicago Hub network is long overdue for upgrades and as much as I love the true railroad feel of the Amfleet and Horizons, it’s time for something new.

I’ve been keeping up with the NGEC monthly notes and I haven’t noticed any issues. Things seem to be progressing no problem with Siemens. Frankly I expect them to get the national Amtrak bid too in order to reduce the fleet types and therefore reduce costs.

The Lake Shore and Capitol LTd's share this route to Cleveland Oh,
thi Mi((midwest services) spin off at CP Porter to Mi proper,the CSX/PM to Grand Rapids and the Amtrak/NS ex NYC to Detroit.
In a just published mag RR Maps Vol 2(kalmbach) on pg 80 is 2019 map of the NS trackage Chicago-Elkhart In
This is 2 track mainline CTC/261 territory rigged with I-ETMS PTC. Stating near Rock Island Jct,freight trains spin off to Various Yards in Chicago
The Division Post is at mp 528.8 that becomes Amtrak's Chicago terminal trackage.
the lift bridge on the south Branch Chicago River may or may not be under Amtrak control.

Then you are aware of the Crush test failure of the 3rd gen Surfliner shell.
Prr fan,give up on pvt companies running service,they wont touch it! NEVER HAPPEN!
Virgin is having a tough time getting it's ROW to Lost Wages.
Both NS and CSX have never played nice with Amtrak.

DOJ/Amtrak sues NS might be the last straw for all parties involved.

There’s more than enough room for Amtrak to have its own railroad between Porter and Chicago if it wants it. That’s also discounting the possibility of sharing the South Shore from Kensington Jct all the way out to South Bend, or self-owning a third track parallel to the NS Chicago Line. The fact that Amtrak didn’t secure its own Chicago entry in the Conrail formation is pretty ludicrous when it was given a neighboring chunk of rail (Porter to K-zoo), but it still has the opportunity to do so today.

Whether it would help OTP from the east, or if Amtrak would just cause its own delays, I don’t know.

WesternNation wrote: ↑Mon Feb 24, 2020 10:27 pm Still doesn’t solve the root problem, boss.

That’s the problem with people in this country. Everything has to make a profit for it to be deemed a success. It’s so ingrained into society it’s like any other option is seen not just as wrong, but as un-American.

Don’t get me wrong, Amtrak needs to be able to take care of themselves as much as possible. But most of the passenger rail systems in the world are heavily subsidized by their governments. If Amtrak were given the money it deserves and should’ve had 40 years ago, the NEC maintenance backlog wouldn’t be where it is now, we wouldn’t be running with 40-50 year old cars, new routes would be in the works, and Amtrak could explore its own ROW in heavily congested areas like the Chicago Line.

You can’t cut your way to profitability and it’s well past time for Congress to pull their head out of the sand and realize that Amtrak is a vital public service that is here to stay, and it needs to be treated as such. There is so much potential for Amtrak to grow into new markets and make the changes they need to make to be successful, but without capital it won’t happen, just like any other business.

Even where Amtrak provides decent service frequencies, the Northeast Corridor, it business is very small in comparison with commuter services over the NEC. Limiting the discussion to just commuter rail; LIRR has 89.8 million passengers per year, MTA North has 87 million passengers per year, MBTA has 32.8 million passengers per year, NJT has 47 million passengers per year, SEPTA has 37.4 million passengers per year, MARC has 9.1 million passengers per year, VRE has 4.8 million passengers per year; while Amtrak has 30-31 million passengers per year "nationally". Some math follows, and using the "national" data for Amtrak favors Amtrak.
89.8 + 87 + 32.8 + 47 + 37.4 + 9.1 + 4.8 = 307.9 million
307.9 / 31 = 9.93.
For every passenger "nationally" Amtrak has, the local commuter agencies on the NEC have 10 passengers. Considering some statistics indicating the NEC is half or less the "national" ridership, that turns into a 20 to 1 ratio for the NEC. I could suggest the local commuter rail agencies could pick up the slack if Amtrak's NEC operations were eliminated if funds that were going to Amtrak went to them instead.

The fact remains that Amtrak is not the only rail service provider on the NEC. I'm not going to suggest Amtrak does not provide a useful service, but I am suggesting American taxpayers along the NEC are subsidizing rail services from other providers than from just Amtrak alone. Discussions without including them does not reflect the as is situation of the real world.

But the NEC is not the Midwest, or the Michigan Amtrak services, with the complete lack of commuter rail agencies in Michigan. Never-the-less, Michigan subsidies Amtrak around $25 million per year to balance the Michigan Amtrak trains books. Therefore, Amtrak loses little money with its Michigan trains.