CSX Calling Signals

I noticed that on the Water Level Route in NY, CSX calls the signals out in addition to using the automatic waysides. I would often hear "Amtrak 63 Engine 11 Clear Signal CPXX."

Is this standard practice with all CSX freights as well? I was thinking that this could almost be used instead of cab signals.

Yes it is common practice, but no it could not be anywhere near as effective and safer than cab signals.

They call all controlled points, in addition to automatics if they display something other than a clear indication. Mind you, not all crews follow these rules, so don't rely on that if you're hoping to catch a train (listen for detectors and the EOT databursts).

CSX crews required to call CP's, Amtrak calls all signals. While no-one is perfect, if another radio is talking the crew won't call the signal to avert "walking" on anothers transmission. Scanners may not always receive all the other transmissions out there. Personally, I'd prefer the distant signals to the CP's get called also. If you miss that one, by the time you see the CP it's too late.

Amtrak engineers are required to call CPs only just like the freight engineers/conductors. If a signal is less favorable than clear Ill let the conductor know. If you heard an Amtrak train calling all the signals its probally because he goes north to Montreal and its a requirement on the D&H/CP. Thats the nice thing working out of ALB, 6 different rule books to keep straight in ones head.

WOW, wait... It was the Amtrak engineer doing the calling? I thought it was the dispatcher confirming the wayside automatic.

Yeah, that probably wouldn't be that safe.

Dispatchers do not know what the signals in the field are. On the control screens, it is go or stop. Over a crossover, it is just a green light. And a signal may not be displaying in the field, but it still shows green on the screen.

gprimr1 wrote:WOW, wait... It was the Amtrak engineer doing the calling? I thought it was the dispatcher confirming the wayside automatic.

Yeah, that probably wouldn't be that safe.

That is why Operating Rules like NORAC 712 forbid the Dispatcher or Operator from advsing the train crew of a signal indication. Only a crew member actually observing the signal can notify other crew members of the indication.

Amtrak sometimes requires the Engineer to call signals that are not required for freight crews. This is because, unlike a freight Conductor, the Amtrak Conductor usually is not in a position to observe the signal and insure the Engineer is complying with the indication.

It is a requirement that I notify the conductor of any signal less favorable than clear. This is not a CSX rule it is a operating notice issued by Amtrak.

gprimr1 wrote:I noticed that on the Water Level Route in NY, CSX calls the signals out in addition to using the automatic waysides. I would often hear "Amtrak 63 Engine 11 Clear Signal CPXX."

Is this standard practice with all CSX freights as well? I was thinking that this could almost be used instead of cab signals.

Yes, it is universal on CSX. And no, it's not as safe as cab signals.

And yes, it ties up the radio channel with a lot of chatter telling essentially NOTHING.

You can see that I don't approve of that aspect of CSX's rules of operation.

"And yes, it ties up the radio channel with a lot of chatter telling essentially NOTHING. "

I would think that its being recorded somewhere to provide proof of what an engineer saw, didn't see, or says he didn't see as he approaced a signal. Like a flight data recorder, if they are not being recorded now, perhaps they should be. (Radio transmissions, that is, not random cab conversation. )

Then you would be thinking like management is thinking...which is, like non-railroaders would think.

First, there is the TREMENDOUS volume of traffic on the former Water Level Route. Which means, with calling signals, it's just one long stream of cacophony. Trying to service an industry anywhere along there is nearly impossible if there's traffic nearby...everyone talking over each other, makes communication between the crew during shove moves dangerous.

Second...why should "what an engineer saw" matter, in the end? He had a signal to stop or reduce. He did not act on it. The rulebook is plain about what to do regarding dark signals or obscured signals.

There is NO WAY, short of actual sabotage, someone going in and rewiring a signal mast, for a train to get a "false clear." It's unheard of.

If it's an effort to establish "what the engineer saw" than a Loco-Cam is going to be far more effective, persuasive, reliable...and won't involve going over hours and hours of recordings over various radio bases to try to decipher what the crew called.

Calling signals is just a nuisance on a lightly-used line, which is mostly what CSX has. In high-volume territories this rule, like most of theirs, does not work well.

It's been done on the "Chessie" side for over 15 years now, and I would hardly consider the B&O west of Greenwich OH (with 2 of the top 3 heaviest traffic segments on the entire system) or the C&O north of Fostoria, the B&O south of Deshler, or the C&EI out of Chicago "light density" Does it make any less sense than acknowleging a defect detector? For what it's worth the NS also calls signals on the former Conrail main to Chicago - apparently with no ill effects...

conrail_engineer wrote:Then you would be thinking like management is thinking...which is, like non-railroaders would think.

First, there is the TREMENDOUS volume of traffic on the former Water Level Route. Which means, with calling signals, it's just one long stream of cacophony. Trying to service an industry anywhere along there is nearly impossible if there's traffic nearby...everyone talking over each other, makes communication between the crew during shove moves dangerous.

Second...why should "what an engineer saw" matter, in the end? He had a signal to stop or reduce. He did not act on it. The rulebook is plain about what to do regarding dark signals or obscured signals.

There is NO WAY, short of actual sabotage, someone going in and rewiring a signal mast, for a train to get a "false clear." It's unheard of.

If it's an effort to establish "what the engineer saw" than a Loco-Cam is going to be far more effective, persuasive, reliable...and won't involve going over hours and hours of recordings over various radio bases to try to decipher what the crew called.

Calling signals is just a nuisance on a lightly-used line, which is mostly what CSX has. In high-volume territories this rule, like most of theirs, does not work well.

conrail_engineer wrote:Then you would be thinking like management is thinking...which is, like non-railroaders would think.

First, there is the TREMENDOUS volume of traffic on the former Water Level Route. Which means, with calling signals, it's just one long stream of cacophony. Trying to service an industry anywhere along there is nearly impossible if there's traffic nearby...everyone talking over each other, makes communication between the crew during shove moves dangerous.

Second...why should "what an engineer saw" matter, in the end? He had a signal to stop or reduce. He did not act on it. The rulebook is plain about what to do regarding dark signals or obscured signals.

There is NO WAY, short of actual sabotage, someone going in and rewiring a signal mast, for a train to get a "false clear." It's unheard of.

If it's an effort to establish "what the engineer saw" than a Loco-Cam is going to be far more effective, persuasive, reliable...and won't involve going over hours and hours of recordings over various radio bases to try to decipher what the crew called.

Calling signals is just a nuisance on a lightly-used line, which is mostly what CSX has. In high-volume territories this rule, like most of theirs, does not work well.

And the rule as saved countless lives and untold millions of equipment damage from MofW workers and other trains hear trains call signals that indicate that SOMETHING is not RIGHT. Railroads are still composed of human beings and human beings make mistakes. Graniteville, SC on the NS is an example of a man failure incident that should never have happened....it did. They enter blocks they don't have authority to, they run signals, they transpose numbers of milepost when requesting authorities, they do any of a thousand different things that can cause a collision between and train and either another train or roadway equipment. A train announcing it's progress, signal by signal and block by block over the road channel gives all those who are not on the train the opportunity to reconcile there proximity to the train.

In regard to the False Clear....there are numerous causes for False Clears, other than sabatoge. Some are as simple as a crack in the back of the signal assembly and the sun shining through the crack during a 10 minute segment of the day. Needless to say there are also a hundred different reasons that relate to defects in the signal system or the causes of nature....a dead rat shunt terminal in the signal case to cause a False Clear. Operating 5, 10, 15 or 20 thousand ton trains at speeds up to 79 MPH is serious business and any opportunity that can be taken to prevent a tragedy should be utilized.

First of all, a disclaimer, my memory is not of the total recall variety. Way back when, I lived and worked in Wash D.C.. I was able to listen to a railroad called the Baltimore and Ohio. There was a series of wrecks involving their trains. between D.C. and Brunswick, Md.. I don't know if the US Govt required it or not but the head end crews started calling the signals. I could hear them very well at my location in the far northwest corner of the city on a tunable vacuum tube Monitoradio. The idea was to let other crews know where there was traffic in the area, who it was and which way it was going. There was also a wreck on the Wash to NYC route involving a "high speed" (as they were called in those days) passenger train near the town of Northeast Md. I believe that may have played a role in the mandating of the calling of signals. I will do some research on this subject and see if there is any more information available.
I hope this helps.